Typo or just a really powerful monster?

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Well this is interesting!

I'm thinking this is a typo, although I like the idea that it's not.

In Ruins of Undermountain, in the Adventures Booklet on pg. 26, it details a monster called guardian skeletons. It says:

"A guardian skeleton has 1 hit die per level of its creator (THACO and saving throws to match) and wields weapons for their normal damage (doing 1-6 points of damage weaponless)."

Ummm...one HIT DIE per level of its creator? In RoU, Halaster is listed as 29th level. That would mean these skeletons are walking around with 29 HD! That's more HD than a great wyrm gold dragon (24HD)! Plus, they have at least 7 lives (and in rare cases as many as 9 or 12 lives), meaning they re-form when destroyed. Fighting one such skeleton with 29 HD that can re-form itself 12 times mean the monster has (effectively) 348 HD!

I was thinking that they meant 1 HP per level of its creator, which would make more sense given the BTB AD&D rules. But the part about thaco and saving throws to match makes it a hard entry to parse.

There are only a few interpretations for this...

1. These monsters do indeed have the thaco and saving throws of their creator, and 1 HD/level of its creator. In this situation, any guardian skeletons created by Halster would have 29 HD , saving throws in the lower single digits, and a thaco of 14.

2. The HD mention was a typo and they meant 1 HIT POINT per level of its creator (which means Halaster would create guardian skeletons with 29hp (not HD), but they would use his thaco of 14 and single digit saving throws (which is clumsy design).

3. The HD mention was a typo and they meant 1 HIT POINT per level of its creator, which means Halaster would create guardian skeletons with 29hp (not HD), but they would use the thaco and saving throws in line with their hp/HD ("thaco and saving throws to match"). For example, Halaster creates a guardian skeleton, it has 29 hp which comes to an average of 6+ HD (by averaging 4.5 hp/HD), a thaco of 15 and double-digit saving throws. This would make the most sense design-wise.

Option #1 seems a bit overpowered and does not seem to be completely in keeping with BTB monster development or tradition. I mean, even a 10th level wizard creating one of these is creating skeletons with 10HD! But on the other hand - damn is that an awesome monster!

Option #2 is clumsy and makes little sense from a BTB rules standpoint. Why 1hp/level of the creator but then use the creator's thaco and saving throws? It makes little sense.

Option #3 makes the most sense from a rules standpoint, technically. But to come to that conclusion means a lot of tinkering with what was written in the description.

So, what does everyone else think?

[Beowulf]

Hmmm...I'm inclined to think it was a type and that they meant 1 HP per level of the creator. But each DM can run it how they like!

[Halaster Blackcloak]

The only reason I'm trying to figure this one out is that I was going to use that monster. But imagine the PCs walking into a room full of guardian skeletons and the skeletons not only have 29HD each, but they can all also regenerate to full health 6 times!

[Mira]

How hard are they to turn? That might be an indicator of how strong they are. If they are turned just the same as normal skeletons, then I'd go with the 1 hit point per level idea. But if they can't be turned at all, that might be an indicator that they ARE meant to be that strong. Knowing what level spell creates them would be useful too. Normal skeletons are created by 3rd level Animate Dead. One would thing the level of spell required to make the guardian form of them would be a lot higher level.

Mira (Back up my hard drive? How do I put it in reverse?)

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Problem is they don's say much about them. They do turn as "special undead", so as you said, that helps make the case for them being more powerful. No info on how they are created.

The entire entry is so strange though. It says they reform (form thin air, even, if disintegrated! ) up to 6 times (7 lives in all) and that some are known to have 9 or even 12 "lives". So if say Halaster creates one, it has 29 HD, which is 5 HD more than a great wyrm gold dragon. On top of that, it can be "revived" for at least 6 more times, meaning the thing enjoys (effectively) 203 HD! If you put one in that can be revived 12 times, then it effectively has 348 HD.



Short of a resurrection, reincarnation or raise dead spell (each of which will permanently destroy one), they cannot be destroyed by any means without coming back, even if disintegrated from existence.

The entry shows them being immune to the standard undead immunities (charm, fear, etc). They also take half damage from edged weapons.

The spells sunray and invisibility to undead have no effect on them.

And they're listed as only being worth 1,400 xp (at 9HD)!

It boggles my mind. Even a 9th level wizard would be creating a monster that cannot be destroyed short of 3 relatively high level spells, that has 9HD, that has tons of immunities, and that can regenerate literally from thin air up to 12 times. With a mere 1,400 xp.

In perspective, if Halaster creates a good half dozen of these and puts them in a room, there will be 6 skeletons, each with 29 HD (130 hp each on average) that can regenerate anywhere from 6 to 12 times. Just to permanently kill one (via mere hp damage), you'd need to inflict 783 hp of damage (if it regenerates only 6 times - if it regenerates 12 times, then you need to dish out 1,566 pts. of damage). And that's just for one skeleton.

It's just not making sense to me. I'll probably use them as written, but I'm hoping to make sure the thing is legitimate and not so powerful due to poor design or massive typos or other errors. I've never seen anything like this.

[Mira]

The XP does seem to indicate they aren't meant to be super powered. So I'd probably read it as 1 HP/level. but since the spell to create them would be pretty high level, I could see giving them the THAC0 of a like level monster. Same with saves. If they are special undead, it should be more powerful than a normal skeleton. Sure, they may die quick if someone uses blunt weapons (perhaps require magical blunt weapons?) but they still don't take a lot of damage from non-blunt. And the continuous return means that yeah, you can destroy it, but next round it reforms and attacks. That has to put a bit of fear into the PCs!

Mira (Shin: A device for finding furniture)

[Halaster Blackcloak]

And they come back anywhere from 6 to 12 times. That's gonna make some players very unhappy!

[McDeath]

Well, there is always the option that at least a few throughout the whole dungeon are as powerful as you say. Remember, this is Halaster, who is practically immortal in many senses.

There are many many options depending on the DM. Now if the editors screwed up (which has been known to happen in the TSR days when they pushed out so many products), its on them. Just remember the mistake of Thoul and now its a monster.

I'd adjust the XP value though.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Yeah, I was thinking that if I use them as listed in the original boxed set, it's legitimate. But good lord, those xp need multiplying! I can't even think of another monster off hand that has 29HD, much less one that can regenerate 6-12 times!