Level 9 - Lair of the Mad Mage - Discussion

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Ok, let's use this thread for working on ideas for Ruins of Undermountain IV: The Lair of the Mad Mage (Level 9: Halaster's Level).

There are a few things to decide. I've already got a good amount of notes for various rooms and traps, as well as some basic ideas to flesh out. But there are a few things I'd like some input on as we look ahead.

First, the size. There's no question that it's going to be at least a double-sized poster map, and I personally am leaning more towards quadruple sized. Imagine the fanfare and scope of it had TSR released it (and assuming they'd kept up with the quality from the first box set). It would have been perhaps their most ambitious project to date, dwarfing even Dragon Mountain and Menzoberranzan. So the question is, do we go with double, triple, or quadruple sized maps?

Second, the danger level. The deeper you go in Undermountain, the deadlier it gets, as has always been the case with AD&D (Dungeon Level IX was deadlier than Dungeon Level IV for example). Now, Level 7 is quite deadly, appropriately so for Arcturia's layer and for PCs who would be expected to show up that deep in the dungeon.

Level 8 is a pretty lethal place by default, given that it's dominated by slimes, oozes, and jellies, etc. It's not easy turning that into a survivable layer, but the ideas I have will work.

But Halaster's level...that's a whole other thing! The original box set says of Halaster's level:

"In reality, Undermountain's ultimate levels is one big gauntlet of the nastiest traps the DM Can devise..."

How deadly should this level be? Personally, I think it should be geared towards 16th to 18th levels and above. If you don't have access to 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells, you have no business being there. Halaster is, after all, 29th level. Or at least, he was in the original box set. In a module that does not exist and did not happen (Stardock), they raised him to 30th level. No way should 12th, 13th, even 15th level characters be surviving his level.

So, what do the rest of you think?

[Jared Synn]

Oh man, a 4-poster quadruple sized layer for Halaster would be sweeeeet! Do you have any plans to make his level special, ie different in some way than all the rest of Undermountain?

[Halaster Blackcloak]

I was thinking about how I can make it different, without making it too different, if you know what I mean. Like for example, the awesome 2E adventure Labyrinth of Madness. Fantastic adventure! It had a cool concept. Certain rooms or areas of rooms simply do not exist unless and until you get magical sigils that appear as tattoos, giving you access to those areas. We found it very challenging, and lots of fun (plus, it was deadly!).

Or the freaking awesome City of Skulls adventure for 2E Greyhawk! An absolutely fantastic adventure where player characters must invade Iuz's city and rescue someone from one of his dungeon/jails. PCs gain a "notoriety score" based on how their actions call attention to themselves, and are faced with increasingly powerful patrols the higher their notoriety score goes. You simply cannot muscle your way through it, unless you can stand toe to toe with 18th level wizards, 18tgh level priests, major demons, and Iuz himself!

So I want to think of something along those lines, but not something that makes it feel as if it's no longer part of Undermountain, if that makes sense. I think there will definitely be some planar content with an interesting twist, since Halaster is so fond of traveling the planes and gating in monsters. Oh, there is one room that nobody in their right mind will go into even for all the gold in Waterdeep! Trust me!

But yeah, expect some sort of interesting twist, but one that leaves it still feeling like Undermountain. Suggestions and ideas of course are always welcome!

And the more I think about it, the more I want a quadruple-sized map. Let's think about it. Undermountain, to many people, is the ultimate dungeon. And Halaster is a legendary character. The character, not me. Hmmm...then again...

But seriously, I think people expect something spectacular for the ultimate level of the ultimate dungeon. Anything less will be a disappointment. Since it specifically says in the original RoU box set that Halaster's level is a nasty gauntlet of the deadliest traps the DM can devise, I think that gives me license to go for broke and make it a truly deadly level. But classy, not just a character grinder. It's my personal belief that a great dungeon crawl is one where PCs must use all their wits as well as all their power, to succeed (and a lot of luck sometimes too!). Ridiculous, impossible traps are no fun. But dangers that take truly talented, seasoned players to get out alive, that's cool. Anyone can write a character grinder. It's a lot harder to write a truly challenging dungeon.

I'm not short on ideas either. Oh man, some of those room I simply cannot wait to write up. I almost regret putting some of my players through them and almost dread putting them through the new ones I've never used.

Almost.

[Hegel]

I like the idea of quadruple maps. I think 18th level would be adequate to the Halaster Level, but 16th and up would also be nice.

[Varl]

I was thinking about how I can make it different, without making it too different, if you know what I mean. Like for example, the awesome 2E adventure Labyrinth of Madness. Fantastic adventure! It had a cool concept. Certain rooms or areas of rooms simply do not exist unless and until you get magical sigils that appear as tattoos, giving you access to those areas. We found it very challenging, and lots of fun (plus, it was deadly!).

Cool idea there.

Oh, there is one room that nobody in their right mind will go into even for all the gold in Waterdeep! Trust me!

But seriously, I think people expect something spectacular for the ultimate level of the ultimate dungeon. Anything less will be a disappointment. Since it specifically says in the original RoU box set that Halaster's level is a nasty gauntlet of the deadliest traps the DM can devise, I think that gives me license to go for broke and make it a truly deadly level. But classy, not just a character grinder. It's my personal belief that a great dungeon crawl is one where PCs must use all their wits as well as all their power, to succeed (and a lot of luck sometimes too!). Ridiculous, impossible traps are no fun. But dangers that take truly talented, seasoned players to get out alive, that's cool. Anyone can write a character grinder. It's a lot harder to write a truly challenging dungeon.

One thing I thought I'd mention about creating this ultimate level of Halaster's Lair is it can't be so difficult that even the Mad Mage has a hard time surviving there. It's fine if he may know all the tricks and secrets to surviving there, but that has to be clearly spelled out for the reader or it may look like Halaster is able to survive where no other creature could.

You also have to consider the end game with Halaster, and the ramifications if the characters make it to his lair level. What will Halaster do? There need to be plenty of contingencies in place for Halaster to use in the unfortunate event that characters survive long enough to actually make it to his level. Can he be defeated? Can he be slain? If he can be, what happens to UM?

For me, there's more that goes into the backstory of an adventure than meets the eye. All the possibilities, twists, and turns that shapes the future of an adventure location, Undermountain included, have to be taken into consideration. If you'd prefer to leave all of that to each DM, fine, but there should be some kind of epilogue detailing some of these possible outcomes. I can't ever imagine any adventure location ever being abandoned for long, not in fantasy worlds where change is constantly occurring.

[Minstrel]

At the risk of being terribly boring, I suggest having at least one very classic high level adversary, along the lines of a Great Wyrm Red. Maybe to give it some unique flavor, make him/her equally mad as Halaster.

On the killing Halaster subject, in the unlikely event that ever happens, it would be wonderfully chaotic if the entire 8th level immediately collapsed down onto the 9th. Splat! All of the nastiness left in level 9 now fighting, running from, getting generally crazy and hellish with a whole lot of slimes and jellies.

And then of course there's always everyone's favorite friend, the Tarrasque. I don't know if it's already been introduced into FR lore pre-ToT, but if not, perhaps it sleeps right next to Undermountain, in one of those sealedforeverorsotheythoughtmuhahahaha! type tombs, and the destruction of Halaster/UM awakens it.

[Mira]

I'd think a Red Dragon would be wanting to do ANYTHING to get out of there! It could only live down there by hibernating a lot and feeding on whatever Halaster fed it, there's no way it could forage for food if it can't get to the surface once in a while. Though I bet it's probably pretty cowed by Halaster and wouldn't be so easily turned against him! (though if it really thought it could get out, maybe it would!)

As for the Tarrasque I think Halaster would have already killed it if it had been there. It would be too big of a trophy not to have done so, and too dangerous to leave around.

Mira (For every action, there is an equal and opposite government program)

[Minstrel]

I was picturing the dragon in an enormous cavern and that, indeed, Halaster did keep it fed. Possibly with a gate to the elemental plane of fire somewhere within also, out of which the dragon could swoop in a fierly blaze, while the adventurers stand stranded in the middle of a desolate mile wide chamber and to which it would retreat if beaten back. They'd have to follow to get a key to get beyond the chamber and have fiery fun. Of course, a mile wide chamber would be hard to put in the map without some creative scaling.

Soooo, thinking aloud here....maybe just a plain old boring gate to a sealed off pocket of the elemental plane of fire where the dragon resides with some elemental servants that venture forth from it to gather food for her in Undermountain. And of course she has the obligatory key to the next area. Maybe Halaster holds her prisoner as a gatekeeper, but allows her to dine on the inhabitants of the dungeon in exchange. If the PC's could figure out some creative way to grant her freedom from undermountain (and didn't mind the idea of loosing a great wyrm red on the world above), they could get past without a fight.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Varl wrote:

Cool idea there.

Yeah, too bad it wasn't mine!

Didn't want to use the same idea, of course. I was just posting that as an example of a cool, unique thing they did for that dungeon.

One thing I thought I'd mention about creating this ultimate level of Halaster's Lair is it can't be so difficult that even the Mad Mage has a hard time surviving there. It's fine if he may know all the tricks and secrets to surviving there, but that has to be clearly spelled out for the reader or it may look like Halaster is able to survive where no other creature could.

So true. I have a few ideas I'm playing with in the back of my head.

You also have to consider the end game with Halaster, and the ramifications if the characters make it to his lair level. What will Halaster do? There need to be plenty of contingencies in place for Halaster to use in the unfortunate event that characters survive long enough to actually make it to his level. Can he be defeated? Can he be slain? If he can be, what happens to UM?

Well the first problem on that level (for PCs) is actually finding Halaster, in addition to surviving all the traps and monsters.

Then you have to figure that Halaster will probably be listed at 35th level by then. And considering that he has clones of himself all over, how can anyone ever be sure that they've killed Halaster and not one of his clones?

I do like the admonition they gave DMs in the original box set, along the lines of "Halaster is one of the great mysteries of this part of the Realms and the wise DM will keep him so".

I also toyed with the idea that Halaster is now a lich (or perhaps better yet, a demi-lich) and he turned all of Undermountain into a massive phylactery. Hence, he can re-create bodies every time one is destroyed. He has an unlimited number of bodies that he can possess (clones, victims in Undermountain, etc) and then recreate into his own form with a simple spell.

The only way to actually kill Halaster is by destroying his phylactery, which means destroying all of Undermountain.

Good luck!

For me, there's more that goes into the backstory of an adventure than meets the eye. All the possibilities, twists, and turns that shapes the future of an adventure location, Undermountain included, have to be taken into consideration. If you'd prefer to leave all of that to each DM, fine, but there should be some kind of epilogue detailing some of these possible outcomes. I can't ever imagine any adventure location ever being abandoned for long, not in fantasy worlds where change is constantly occurring.

True. I plan on addressing a lot of that.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Minstrel wrote:

At the risk of being terribly boring, I suggest having at least one very classic high level adversary, along the lines of a Great Wyrm Red. Maybe to give it some unique flavor, make him/her equally mad as Halaster.

You mean like maybe a chromatic dracolich? Shhhh! You didn't hear me say that!

Yeah, I think there needs to be some classic high level enemies. Definitely some dragons and demons. But what can the ultimate monster be? A tarrasque? Perhaps Halaster has the only tarrasque in Faerun, gated in to serve in Undermountain. It'd have to be a huge freaking cavern though! That's the one restrictive thing about Undermountain...some monsters like dragons need immense, open areas which would take up so much of the maps that it becomes impractical.

On the killing Halaster subject, in the unlikely event that ever happens, it would be wonderfully chaotic if the entire 8th level immediately collapsed down onto the 9th. Splat! All of the nastiness left in level 9 now fighting, running from, getting generally crazy and hellish with a whole lot of slimes and jellies.

Hehehe!

Or maybe Halaster has a "doomsday weapon" in that all the gates suddenly start pumping monsters out into the surface world, and working overtime. Imagine how hard it would be to counter that.

Mira wrote:

I'd think a Red Dragon would be wanting to do ANYTHING to get out of there! It could only live down there by hibernating a lot and feeding on whatever Halaster fed it, there's no way it could forage for food if it can't get to the surface once in a while. Though I bet it's probably pretty cowed by Halaster and wouldn't be so easily turned against him! (though if it really thought it could get out, maybe it would!)

Good points! I'm really having a problem figuring out dragons down there, because that scenario already exists on Level 3 with Aragauthos the blue dragon in Room #70.

As for the Tarrasque I think Halaster would have already killed it if it had been there. It would be too big of a trophy not to have done so, and too dangerous to leave around.

The real problem is where to store it. It needs lots of room! It stirs for a week or two on average about once a year (every 12.5 months). Every 10 years it stays active longer, staying awake for several months, then sleeping for (on average) 10 years. So perhaps it retreats via a massive gate or something to a hidden area deep in Undermountain, and Halaster lets it out when it awakes?

Minstrel wrote:

Soooo, thinking aloud here....maybe just a plain old boring gate to a sealed off pocket of the elemental plane of fire where the dragon resides with some elemental servants that venture forth from it to gather food for her in Undermountain. And of course she has the obligatory key to the next area. Maybe Halaster holds her prisoner as a gatekeeper, but allows her to dine on the inhabitants of the dungeon in exchange. If the PC's could figure out some creative way to grant her freedom from undermountain (and didn't mind the idea of loosing a great wyrm red on the world above), they could get past without a fight.

I was just thinking. Surely Halaster is capable of creating rooms that are in essence pocket dimensions. Just think how big some of the rooms can be then!

[Note: I think I just heard Doirche's head exploding! ]

Now that might be a really workable solution. Imagine going into a room that is in essence a pocket dimension that's as big as a city, or even an entire world!

It works within established AD&D rules, and it solves the problem of not having enough room for dragons and stuff. How does that sound to everyone else? Or am I overlooking something?

[adidamps2]

As for the Tarrasque I think Halaster would have already killed it if it had been there. It would be too big of a trophy not to have done so, and too dangerous to leave around.

The real problem is where to store it. It needs lots of room! It stirs for a week or two on average about once a year (every 12.5 months). Every 10 years it stays active longer, staying awake for several months, then sleeping for (on average) 10 years. So perhaps it retreats via a massive gate or something to a hidden area deep in Undermountain, and Halaster lets it out when it awakes?

not if Halaster has it in some sort of suspended animation..then he can release it when ever he sees fit!!!!

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Adidamps2 wrote:

not if Halaster has it in some sort of suspended animation..then he can release it when ever he sees fit!!!!

I like your style of thinking!

[adidamps2]

Adidamps2 wrote:

not if Halaster has it in some sort of suspended animation..then he can release it when ever he sees fit!!!!

I like your style of thinking!

Hell you could swing it were Halaster created the Tarrasque as some sort of experiment to be used when/if adventurer's ever made it down to his level of the dungeon and as a kind of last ditch effort to destroy the adventurer's. some sort of Artifact is what hold's it in it's Suspended animation state (either a static field that surrounds it or possibly just effects the Tarrasque itself), that only Halaster knows the "command word" for to release it from it's bonds.

[radwizard]

There is enough articles in Dragon Magazine that would let one create a hybrid Red......something like a duel headed dragon one red head...one black....? What was that apprentice of Halaster's that liked to crossbreed monsters, maybe it could be a tribute from her to Halaster......so he uses it to guard some of his lair. If it has the ability to Enlarge/Shrink you would only need a large enough room or cavern for it to battle, but only a small room or cavern where it could retreat and store treasure.

Just some ideas to throw out.

[Sir Clarence]

What about a level that consist of a series of rooms or encounter areas that are only connected via teleportals. Something in the line of the Adytum chapter in Monte Cook's Die Vecna Die! adventure or, on a way lower level, the old Lost Island Of Castanamir module. To make things more complicated, some rooms or areas can possibly only be reached via special activation stones or keys that enable the teleportals to reprogram. And there'll be a Master Key of course that one has to get before the grand finale. I'm rambling now, but you might get the idea. This option can make the level a true labyrinth of interconnected rooms and chambers that are somehow like small demiplanes in themselves. I always loved these kind of adventures.

You would of course need more a kind of flowchart than a standard dungeon map for this.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

That's the one problem I'm having, is how to map such an extensive dungeon.

[Doirche]

That's the one problem I'm having, is how to map such an extensive dungeon.

I don't wanna hear it Halaster. You have the luxury of freehanding that map with paper and pencil.... you should try it from my side sometime........

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Doirche wrote:

you should try it from my side sometime.......

No thanks!

They'd fine me keeled over - stone cold dead - at the computer, my middle finger locked upright from rigor mortis in a final salute to my "beloved" computer.

And the damned map wouldn't even be half done!

So I take it you want me to scratch the plan for a 4D tesseract map for Level 9?

[Doirche]

So I take it you want me to scratch the plan for a 4D tesseract map for Level 9?

Hook it up........

/Doirche get's the baseball bat out..........

[Halaster Blackcloak]

But just think of the challenge and the pride you'll feel once you map it!

[Algolei]

Hey, here's level 5 of my dungeon, drawn in Widnows Paint:

[Algolei]

...yes, that's right, I said "Widnows."

[Hegel]

Come on, Paint? Amazing!

[Doirche]

You did that in Paint?

Absolutely excellent work.... good job.

[Algolei]

Actually, I drew it in Dexxa Paint It (copyright 1988) in nine sections. Then I converted it (via several complicated steps) into Widnows Paint so I could connect the sections together into one image, which I then converted to a .jpg file.

It's Level 5 of the dungeon I posted before in the...uh, the other section of these boards. What's it called again?

...hang on, I'll check....

Huh. Guess I never did post it here. But I did post it over on thedungeondelver.com under the Open Writing Projects section. Here's a direct link to where I'm storing it online at keepandshare: http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/view.php?u=573455