Updated details on the Ruins of Undermountain III Project!

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Ok, I posted this on another thread, and it has to do with what I'm about to discuss:

Levels 1-3 are detailed (obviously) in the original box set, and in there it spells out that Level 4 is a farm level, that the "mid levels below that" are dominated by Halaster's apprentices (hence, Levels 5-7 should be the levels of Trobriand, Muiral, and Arcturia), that directly below those levels is a twisted area of confusing sub-levels called "The Dark Levels", that below those Dark Levels is an area dominated by oozes, slimes, jellies, etc (ie Level 8 ). Then they list the final main level as Halaster's Lair ("The Mad Wizard's Lair"), ie Level 9.

What needed to be done with Ruins of Undermountain II (aside from hiring me to do the damned thing correctly!) was to have Greenwood write it (not the hacks they hired!), and to detail Level 4: The Farm Levels, Level 5: Trobriand's Graveyard, and one or two of the sub-levels from the Dark Levels.

Then Ruins of Undermountain III would have detailed Level 6: Muiral's Gauntlet, Level 7: Arcturia's Abode, and Level 8: The Slime Level.

Finally, Ruins of Undermountain IV would detail Level 9: Halaster's Lair, which would be a quadruple-sized layer (ie four maps for that one layer) that would warrant its own box set. Or perhaps a triple sized layer and some of the Realms Below areas that link to Undermountain. Eh. I think that would be anti-climactic. I'd stick with a huge Level 9 for Halaster.

I'd have followed this pattern for the BIP Project, but I didn't feel like detailing a massive farm, mainly because I couldn't tap my creativity as I wasn't inspired by a big-ass underground farm.

Ok, so we're not doing Level 4 right now.

Ruins of Undermountain III: The Deadly Levels is going to cover Level 7: Arcturia's Abode (since she's the last apprentice listed in the original box set that hasn't been given a level as yet), Level 8: The Slime Level (since that's the next main level) and two sub-levels (to round it out and provide 4 full maps as the original box set did*).

[*More on this later.]

Level 7 has 40 developed core rooms and 14 areas of interest for a total of 54 developed rooms/areas. Level 8 has 32 developed core rooms and 16 areas of interest for a total of 48 developed rooms/areas. That comes to 102 developed rooms/areas.

I'm considering making the two sub-levels smaller, perhaps small enough so that both can fit on one map. Not every level and sub-level has to be a full sized map, and most of them in RoUII were no more than wasted space anyway. Plus, a sub-level by definition should be a bit smaller than a full level. So I'm thinking 12 developed rooms on one level and 10 on the other sub-level, which should work, considering they'll be half the size. That means we'll have a total of 124 developed rooms, the same as the original box set! (And of course, all the new NPCs, spells, magic items, monsters, etc.)

The only problem I see with that is we'll only have 3 full sized maps in total...one for Level 7, one for Level 8, and one that shows two different sub-levels on the same side (one up top, one on the bottom). The box sets usually have 4 maps. Does anyone else here think that matters, or should we make the sub-levels full-sized maps? So far, only 5 of the 14 originally mentioned sub-levels have been developed (The Lost Level, Maddgoth's Castle, Crystal Labyrinth/Stardock, Wyllowwood, Adventures - these are the individual modules and what was added to RoUII). That leaves 9 free ones, but I don't want to over-develop Undermountain.

I was thinking of doing 3 sub-levels (one a full sized map, the other two share one full sized map) so that we can have a 4th map, but I wonder if that's overkill?

What do the rest of you think? Is it important to have 4 full sized maps, or should the quality make up for the lack of one map?

Finally, I'm thinking ahead to Level 9: Lair of the Mad Mage (Halaster's Level). It has to be at least a double-sized level. But unlike Level 3, I think it'd be better joined side-by-side, not top-to-bottom. However, I'm considering a triple sized map or even a quadruple sized map. It is, after all, the most lethal, most challenging, ultimate gauntlet layer in all of Undermountain!

How big do you guys think it should be? Double sized? Triple? Quadruple?

I planned on having that one level by itself be the entire project for Ruins of Undermountain IV: Lair of the Mad Mage. Why have any sub-levels? It's anti-climactic I think. But with just a double-sized map, that means if I develop say 50 rooms, that's all that the reader gets, because we need to leave plenty of space for the various fans and DMs to customize. And that's less than half a box set (they should be around 125 rooms). With a quadruple sized map, I can develop 125-150 rooms and it would be the same number of rooms developed in the original box set, plus the same ratio of developed to undeveloped rooms. That is quite a lot of mapping though!

Well, thoughts, ideas, suggestions?

[Doirche]

Why not develop four sub-levels and put two of them on separate poster sized maps? That would give you the four poster sized maps you are looking for. (dunno why I am creating more work for myself )

Also, I remember reading in the original Ruins of Undermountain set that Halaster had lairs on levels seven and nine. Have you taken that into account with level 7?

Are you going off what has been developed in the Expedition to Undermountain module published by WotC? Not sure if you have looked at that product yet, but most of the main levels are listed in that and there is even a side view diagram as to how all of the levels connect together. One of the maps (not sure which though) is a complete ripoff from "The Axe of the Dwarvish Lords" module but oh well. The quality of the cartography cranked out by WotC these days is garbage imo anyways.

I think if you are going to publish a separate product just for level 9 it needs to be by itself. It can be two poster sized maps in size or bigger or it can be just one poster map with ALL of the rooms detailed. Either way, I think level 9 needs to be published alone. We can do other smaller products that detail the other sub-levels at a later date.

Doirche

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Doirche wrote:

Why not develop four sub-levels and put two of them on separate poster sized maps? That would give you the four poster sized maps you are looking for. (dunno why I am creating more work for myself )

Do you mean two sub-levels per map, therefore four sub-levels on 2 maps?

[Note to self: Keep an eye on Doirche, I think he's trying to work me to death!]

Yikes, that's a lot more work!

I do want to be faithful to the original and sort of extrapolate as to where it would have gone had they not screwed up totally on RoUII. But I suppose 4 maps is not a requirement per se. The first box set had four maps only because Level 3 was double-sized. The second box set had 4 maps, but you could tell it was only because they wanted to brag about having 4 poster sized maps...they were all half-empty, boring, and poorly developed, as well as ridiculous (a scaladar shaped cavern? talk about ruining suspension of disbelief!).

So I'm thinking that 3 well developed levels (Level 7, Level 8, and a sub-level or perhaps two sublevels combined on one map) as long as it's well done, accurately detailed, and creative, isn't really "ripping off" the fans, especially if it has the same number of developed areas as the original box set. After all, one of the complaints that some have about the original set is that there were too many undeveloped rooms. Our ratio might be a tad better.

But then again, I don't want people to feel "ripped off" because they've become accustomed to 4 maps. That would be kind of absurd anyway, given that it's a free product, but even so.

Also, I remember reading in the original Ruins of Undermountain set that Halaster had lairs on levels seven and nine. Have you taken that into account with level 7?

Yep, I almost forgot to include Halaster's lair on Level 7 when I was originally designing it, but I figured out where to put it. I decided that it'd be a small area, usually used only when he meets with Arcturia (she is in love with him, after all!), or for certain specific researches, etc. I didn't want his area to dominate that level, seeing as Arcturia has been screwed over by TSR and then WOTC. She deserves better! I just don't want Halaster to steal the show. Plus, he's getting a massive level for Level 9.

Are you going off what has been developed in the Expedition to Undermountain module published by WotC? Not sure if you have looked at that product yet, but most of the main levels are listed in that and there is even a side view diagram as to how all of the levels connect together. One of the maps (not sure which though) is a complete ripoff from "The Axe of the Dwarvish Lords" module but oh well. The quality of the cartography cranked out by WotC these days is garbage imo anyways.

I don't even acknowledge the existence of any 3E material. Halaster dead as a result of an earthquake? We're talking about a buy who consorts with demon lords and travels the planes alone on his own power and who makes Khelben wake up screaming at night in a cold sweat at the thought of Halaster tiring of being inside Undermountain. But he died in an earthquake. Insane. And they turned Arcturia into a "Chondathan undead human work that walks", whatever they hell screwy 3E template that is! TSR turned Shradin into a crimson mist. Humbug!

Plus, they totally screwed up the original layout of the levels as spelled out in the original box set, when they mis-numbered the levels in RoUII and went further off course in 3E.

So I'm just ignoring all that. After we finish Halaster's Level (Level 9), I'm going back to re-do Ruins of Undermountain II (levels 5 & 6) and to do it right this time! Trobriand's level is a sad and pathetic joke in that box set. I've had better designs and ideas while sick with the flu in 3rd grade. Muiral's level was not much better.

I think if you are going to publish a separate product just for level 9 it needs to be by itself. It can be two poster sized maps in size or bigger or it can be just one poster map with ALL of the rooms detailed. Either way, I think level 9 needs to be published alone. We can do other smaller products that detail the other sub-levels at a later date.

I agree. It should be its own release, with no added levels or sub-levels. Level 9 is the ultimate level of Undermountain...Halaster's Lair. It has to be grand, and far beyond anything we've seen or done so far. I do like the idea of a whole map with all the rooms developed, but then again that leaves no room for DMs to customize, so I think we should stick with the pattern of developing core rooms and leaving plenty of others to customize. But it has to be at least double sized. If Level 3 is double sized, the ultimate level should be even beyond that. I'm starting to picture in my head all of Level 9 covering 4 full sized maps, and it's making me woozy both with excitement, anticipation, and dread at the same time. When the time comes to do Level 9, I may very well take a 1 month sabbatical and do nothing but develop that level 8 hours a day.

It simply has to blow people away. It has to leave jaws slacked open. It has to make people go... .

[Doirche]

Do you mean two sub-levels per map, therefore four sub-levels on 2 maps?

[Note to self: Keep an eye on Doirche, I think he's trying to work me to death!]

Yup, that's what I mean And I bet it takes me longer to draw the maps into Illustrator than it takes you to hand draw them, so in reality I am creating more work for ME

I'm GLAD you are ignoring The Expedition to Undermountain. I agree with what you said about it.

[McDeath]

I am so confused. Good thing you know how it is supposed to go down. I'm going to have to look at the first thread again.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

McDeath, Undermountain confusing? Nah!

Yeah, they made such a mess of it that makes your head spin!

I moved that thread where I explain it all here:

viewtopic.php?t=66

Read my 3rd post in that discussion, that's where I explain how the levels were conceived and presented in the original box set, and how I think subsequent releases should have been.

Now that I think about it, I wish I had thought of this before. It would have been cool to have started the whole BIP Undermountain development project by re-doing RoUII, which in my version would cover Level 4 (Farm Level), Level 5 (Trobriand's Level), and a sub-level. Then I would have gone into RoUIII and detailed Level 6 (Muiral's level), Level 7 (Arcturia's level), and Level 8 (Slime Level). Finally, RoUIV would have been Level 9 (Halaster's Level).

But we're in too deep now, so instead we'll wrap up Levels 7 & 8 and a sub-level or two for RoUIII, then do RoUIV (Level 9, Halaster's lair), then go back and re-do Levels 4-6.

[McDeath]

Ah! I gotcha. Thanks for sorting that out.