What does everyone think about room counts?

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Ok folks, here's something to think about.

The original box set, Ruins of Undermountain, had 124 developed rooms or areas of interest. It breaks down like this:

Level 1 = 42 core rooms/28 areas of interest = 70 total
Level 2 = 17 core rooms/26 areas of interest = 43 total
Level 3 = 11 core rooms/0 areas of interest = 11 total

Grand total: 124


So far, for Ruins of Undermountain III: The Deadly Levels, we have:

Level 7 = 41 core rooms/26 areas of interest = 67 total
Level 8 = 41 core rooms/26 areas of interest = 67 total
Sub-level = ? core rooms/? areas of interest = ? total

Grand total: 134 plus however many we include on the sub-level.

A sub-level should have fewer rooms than a main level. In RoU, they had no areas of interest on the Level 3. If we follow that (ie no areas of interest on the sub-level), we can put 16 rooms on the sub-level for a grand total of 150 developed rooms. A nice clean number. Or if we keep the 26 areas of interest consistent (which I'm definitely doing for all the main levels...Levels 7, 8, 9, and also Levels 4, 5, and 6 when we do RoUIV and re-do RoUII), that comes to 160 rooms/areas plus however many core rooms we do. If we do 25 core rooms for the sub-level plus the 26 areas of interest, we top out at 185 developed rooms. Wow!

I posed the question to the development team, but I wanted a public discussion on it as well. For purposes of discussion, keep the following in mind...

1. For all RoU BIP releases, all main levels of Undermountain (Levels 4,5,6,7,8, and 9) will have exactly 26 areas of interest each, plus whatever number of core rooms we decide on.

2. I don't care if sub-levels have areas of interest and frankly I prefer they don't. I hate doing areas of interest because they are just as much work as normal core rooms.

3. Each Undermountain project at BIP will closely follow Ruins of Undermountain (the original) as a guide, hence we must have at least 124 developed rooms in each release...RoUIII, RoUIV, and RoUII (the remake). If people want only 124 rooms. I don't mind doing more, but I won't do less.

4. Keep in mind that I am trying to work on one of the most common complaints I hear from people who criticize Undermountain...that the original set came with far too many empty, undeveloped rooms. I'm trying to strike a better ratio where there are lots of developed rooms, and plenty of room for DMs to expand, but not so much room to expand that the map looks empty. For example, Level 3 in RoU is a double-sized levels (two full sized posters) and yet it has just 11 developed areas. I'd rather have plenty of developed rooms on any level or sub-level we make, so that it looks developed.

So, comments, suggestions, etc?

[Minstrel]

I don't have a great answer here. The points about too many undeveloped rooms are quite valid. What if my party turns right at that fork, into the massive grey eastern area of the dungeon. Either I need to get creative real fast, or find some way to railroad them back into the developed section of the dungeon, in which case why bother having the rest of the map at all...I might as well put a wall where the unknown dungeon area starts instead.

It's been too long since I've read RoU that I don't have a good feel for what exactly areas of interest are. I'm guessing they're a vague description of an area but not a true developed set of rooms.

That's good, but not quite what I'd need to DM the party through an undeveloped 18 room section of a mega dungeon.

This isn't in keeping with the original layout of the set, so it might not fly, but I'd enjoy having a set of maybe two dozen developed areas with numbered rooms, but without maps, and unnecessary to the main dungeon. Something that I could just drop into an undeveloped area with little or no tweaking, but that could just as easily be left out entirely if I wanted to develop that area myself. The descriptions would have to leave room for the rooms to be connected in any particular way which suits the big map, and generic enough that the room doesn't need to conform to a specific shape.

[Varl]

I don't have a great answer here. The points about too many undeveloped rooms are quite valid. What if my party turns right at that fork, into the massive grey eastern area of the dungeon. Either I need to get creative real fast, or find some way to railroad them back into the developed section of the dungeon, in which case why bother having the rest of the map at all...I might as well put a wall where the unknown dungeon area starts instead.

Not to get too tangential, but from an overall perspective to dungeon creation, I'd like to see the process of dungeon creation change. What I mean is, wouldn't it be nice for a DM to have insert cards, sidebars, or some means of showing how areas in a dungeon change over time, sort of as a "wandering monster chart" for dungeon room design?

I've found myself many times in Minstrel's shoes where an entire area has yet to be fleshed out, so I'm left to wing it. Now I don't mind winging it when necessary, but having things predefined is much easier, and it gets even better when you have a list of possibilities that could occur as a result of the party's adventures. If they eradicate the orcs in room 5, for example, what will room 5 be like if and when they return to that room? Will something more fierce be feeding on the corpses? Will the room simply stink horribly of rot and decay? Will the corpses still even be there?

These are the types of possibilities I think would make a great DM tool, to have as many of these possibilities thought out in advance as options to give a DM ammunition from which to display how the ecology of a dungeon changes minute to minute. I think that is how you weave dungeon ecology into something players can believe rather than the "189 separate rooms all self-contained and oblivious to one another" style.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

I think we're going off into an almost impossible tangent there, though. There's no way to really account for all that unless you plan on replacing the DM with an AI machine. Basically, that's what would happen...the computer would end up deciding everything, plotting out dungeon ecology, determining changes, etc. The DM ends up being the guy who reads the print out and little else.

We will have something along the lines of what Minstrel mentioned though. On the Dungeon Dressing Cards, we're going to have "plug and play" rooms...room contents described so that you can simply roll for one or pick one and use it for any undeveloped room on the map. Not sure how many we'll have, but it should be at least a good two dozen.

Also, let me address Minstrel's questions about areas of interest. Minstrel wrote:

It's been too long since I've read RoU that I don't have a good feel for what exactly areas of interest are. I'm guessing they're a vague description of an area but not a true developed set of rooms.

Areas of interest can be entire rooms or just small areas outside of rooms. They were originally designed a optional rooms to add to the core rooms. Adding the optional rooms made the overall challenge level higher. Which sorta made no sense because the entire dungeon needs to be considered.

So we're doing them as both optional rooms as well as areas outside of the rooms. For example, a minor corner room at the end of a corridor that seems tiny and not very significant (say 10' x 10' or even 10' x 20') may have interesting aspects to it. Or there may be a cliff area in a cavern, where the cavern itself is left undeveloped, but the cliff area of it is developed...that's an area of interest.

Also, I tried to design Level 7 and Level 8 (and will also design the sub-level) so that the DM can more easily "cut off" access to entire areas of the map. Instead of how on Level 1 there are 20 hallways leading into a complex group of rooms, I have it where there are room complexes that can be accessed only via one or two hallways. Some have more ways in, but none have 20 different ways in for the DM to worry.

In other words, on Level 1, if you want to cut off access to a particular undeveloped area, you have to find a way to seal off 10, 15, maybe 20 ways in.

With our release, a DM need only have a small ceiling collapse, or place a single prismatic wall, or station a single tough monster, and that will deny access to an entire complex of rooms, an entire area. Check out the preview of the map and you'll see what I mean.

Notice that, for example, only one hallway allows access to Rooms # 1A, 1B, 1C, 1D, 1E, 1F, 1G, and 2.

Rooms #4-10 have only one way into that complex.

Stuff like that. More user friendly.

[McDeath]

Will ROUIII have a set of cards and monstrous compendium entries (remember those useful tricks/traps cards)?

[Doirche]

Yes and Yes

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Everything is going to be the same as the original. Four full poster-sized maps, 3 levels detailed, a bunch of new monsters on Monstrous Compendium formatted sheets, dungeon dressing cards, an adventure booklet, etc.

Just a lot more of everything.

[Doirche]

We are also going to have a cover and back you can print out and attach to a cardboard box so you can have your very own box set! It will be the same dimensions as the original box too so it will look great on a shelf.

The "Dungeon Dressing" cards can either be printed on heavy cardstock or you can print them on regular paper and glue them to cardboard, whichever you prefer.

Either way, everything that is going to be published by the BIP team will look as closely to the original set as possible.

-D