Some Thoughts on Illusions

Public discussion of the newest addition to the DMGR tradition...the Complete Book of Illusionists.

Moderator: Thorn Blackstone

Post Reply
User avatar
McDeath
Scribe of Tomes
Scribe of Tomes
Posts: 2099
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:28 pm
Location: Veneta, Oregon

Some Thoughts on Illusions

Post by McDeath »

I'll quote this from a DF topic I was replying to:
Being an old Bard's Tale fan I always loved toying with illusion/phantasm spells. Something that we came up with was allowing a save vs. Intelligence per NPC facing the spell in questions. Generally a lvl 1 illusion was even steven but each level beyond that incurred a -1 penalty to the Save. For each player in the group that "Disbelieve" the illusion and shouted such for other players in the group there would be a +1 to the save. A player could also forfeit all actions on a round to attempt to disbelieve the illusion. For each round of uninterrupted concentration a Save vs Int would be allowed gaining a cumulative +1 to the save each round after the first (i.e. Johny attempts to disbelieve a 1st lvl illusion but keeps failing to do so and is currently at rd 3 still attempting. He would gain a +2 to roll vs int is he is still activively trying to do so). Of course if the character was struck/spelled/etc during that round he'd have to start all over. Later when I discovered 2nd edition and saw intelligence awarded immunity to certain illusion based on your int I was rather pleased and included that as well.

Naturally we came up with several versions of illusion monsters of various spells levels as well. It was kind of complex but only as far as illusions went.
Since 2nd edition has generic mages and specialist illusionists I'd say for my own personal usage that penalty per spell lvl of illusions cast by an illusionist would be doubled.

General Notes on Disbelieving Illusions:
Generally any number of illusions may be disbelieved in a single round if cast from generic mages. If cast from Illusionists refer to the table below.

While fighting, spellcasting, or performing some action other than "Disbelieving" will allow a save vs. Intelligence only "ONCE" during the casting of said illusion. If the illusion is disbelieved by that particalar PC/NPC then it will have no affect on him/her. Those that fail will percieve the illusion to be real unless they actively attempt to "Disbelieve" it.

The only exception to this is if one or more fellow members see through the illusion right off the bat and convey their information to others that did not see through the illusion. In this case, they are allowed another Saving Throw vs. Intelligence at the modified group modifier below:

Bonus to group Disbelieving:
0 Members convey: +0 Save vs. Int
1 Member conveys: +1 Save vs. Int
2 Members convey: +2 Save vs. Int
3 Members convey: +3 Save vs. Int, etc....

-------------------------------------------------
Generic Mage Illusions:
Cantrip: +1 Save vs. Int
1st lvl: +0 Saves vs. Int
2nd lvl: -1 Saves vs. Int
3rd lvl: -2 Saves vs. Int
4th lvl: -3 Saves vs. Int
5th lvl: -4 Saves vs. Int
6th lvl: -5 Saves vs. Int
7th Lvl: -6 Saves vs. Int
8th Lvl: -7 Saves vs. Int
9th Lvl: -8 Saves vs. Int
10th Lvl: -9 Saves vs. Int

Illusionist Illusions:
Cantrip: +0 Saves vs. Int
1st lvl: -1 Saves vs. Int
2nd lvl: -2 Saves vs. Int
3rd lvl: -4 Saves vs. Int
4th lvl: -6 Saves vs. Int
5th lvl: -8 Saves vs. Int
6th lvl: -10 Saves vs. Int
7th Lvl: -12 Saves vs. Int
8th Lvl: -14 Saves vs. Int
9th Lvl: -16 Saves vs. Int
10th Lvl: -18 Saves vs. Int

Bonus to Intelligence Saves while "Disbelieving"
Round 1: +1
Round 2: +2
Round 3: +3
Round 4" +4 etc....

*Note must be uninterrupted concentration or the bonus will drop back to +1 and will begin anew. Character can take no other action while "Disbelieving"
User avatar
Halaster Blackcloak
Lord of Undermountain
Lord of Undermountain
Posts: 4034
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:47 am
Location: Undermountain
Contact:

Post by Halaster Blackcloak »

I like the idea overall, but I think the numbers are too high. A -18 penalty? :shock:
The Back In Print Project - Where AD&D Lives Forever!

Image
User avatar
McDeath
Scribe of Tomes
Scribe of Tomes
Posts: 2099
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:28 pm
Location: Veneta, Oregon

Post by McDeath »

Well, that is a 10th level spell. And epic players confronting such will probably have a few bonuses. And this is just to attempt to disbelieve the illusion after any initial saves from whatever the spell description sets. In my opinion the PCs perception on reality is so warped that distinguishing the illusion from reality is very difficult (and that is only if cast by a true illusionist). Its just something I've toyed with.
User avatar
Halaster Blackcloak
Lord of Undermountain
Lord of Undermountain
Posts: 4034
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:47 am
Location: Undermountain
Contact:

Post by Halaster Blackcloak »

Err...when did we have 10th level spells in 2E? :?

Wasn't that only in Netheril in the FR? Don't mind me, I have total mental block, being it's 3:30 AM. :shock:

I'm wondering if double-digit penalties to saving throws is going to be seen as far too powerful?
The Back In Print Project - Where AD&D Lives Forever!

Image
User avatar
McDeath
Scribe of Tomes
Scribe of Tomes
Posts: 2099
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:28 pm
Location: Veneta, Oregon

Post by McDeath »

Yeah, Netheril did as did Dragonkings for Darksun. If you use any of the Mayfair Game supplements there are some in the Archmagic boxed set as well. In one of my own high magic campaigns I was testing years back clerical prayers(miracles whatever) went to 10th and mage spells went to 12th. Spells of that calibur were world changing events (some were just plain or cheesy). I had this one spells called Gamma-Lash that was a damage spell to kill massopponents but had a high likelyhood of mutating the caster into a rampaging mindless hulk (obviously I was way into comics at the time) who would kill and destroy everything around him/her (including teammates). I think one of the level 12 spells was Thermo-Nuclear-Detonation (yeah, that just spells CHEEZ) :oops:
User avatar
Varl
Scribe of Tomes
Scribe of Tomes
Posts: 313
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2007 7:55 am
Location: Mount Vernon, Washington

Post by Varl »

My own thoughts on illusions.

Illusion magic has always been an odd duck in AD&D. It's whole focus centers on disbelief by the target in whatever the illusion happens to be. That's pretty much where the power of illusions comes from; whether or not it can fool a target.

The illusionist should be the one that has to construct a convincing enough illusion that it makes me think it's real, whatever it may be. This ability to construct a believable image is tied directly into each and every illusionist's life experiences.

Has he encountered a bear in order to make an illusion of a bear? A Dragon? A spell like Fireball?

His life experiences are what should dictate whether he creates a convincing illusion. I don't know about anyone else, but I think it'd be great to compile a list of possible "sources" that illusionists can create through their illusions. Obviously, this list would and could be massive in size, considering virtually anything under the sun could conceivably become illusion under the illusionist's spells, but I'm talking the more common, more likely sources. Animals, monsters, traps, environmental effects, weather, people, items, and spells, just to name a few to start.

You compile these into a list and assign a "difficulty to construct using illusion magic" percentage check (or some other base check) based on what it is, and I think that would be an excellent foundation from which illusionists could base their life experiences from, and to know in advance (for example) that trying to frighten away the orcs with a huge Grizzly Bear has a base chance of 30% because of the intricacy of imitating a bear, from fur to mannerisms. See what I mean?

This could become quite expansive obviously, but I feel in order to give the illusionist the power they deserve more than a simple "Save vs. spell to see something unusual and disbelieve" check. The whole disbelief action needs a basis from which it forms, and I think that basis should entirely be based on what it is the illusionist is trying to imitate, and the current system really doesn't model that well at all. As I said, it's a mere save to see through the illusion, and how much fun is that, really? By setting percentages (or whole number) values to each illusionist's life experiences, adjustable over time perhaps, you now have the potential for a system that grows as the illusionist grows in power, so that the Grizzly he creates at 1st level might scare away animals or kobolds, the Grizzly he can create at 10th level frightens most anything. This is the kind of system I'd like to see illusionists have. One where they can create anything they've experienced, grow, and increase the reality of each and every illusion they create.

Just thinking out loud. :)
Tired of clone MMOs? So are we!
http://trialsofascension.com/
Doirche

Post by Doirche »

There was also a brief mention of 10th levels spells in the Ruins of Myth Drannor boxed set (2nd Ed). Hurricane, Create Mythal... etc.
User avatar
Halaster Blackcloak
Lord of Undermountain
Lord of Undermountain
Posts: 4034
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:47 am
Location: Undermountain
Contact:

Post by Halaster Blackcloak »

Lots of good ideas so far. I think most of the stuff we do should top out with 9th level spells though, since most of the material for 10th level spells in AD&D come from the FR, where those spells are no longer able to be used by mortals in most cases. We don't want people screaming "power escalation".

I think McDeath introduced something vital to the project though. Adjudicating illusions has been neglected for the most part in both 1E and 2E, so it's up to us to hash it out and detail it. Keep running with it, guys! :wink:
The Back In Print Project - Where AD&D Lives Forever!

Image
Post Reply