WTF is up with Candlekeep's forums?

[Doirche]

Anyone tried to get on their forums lately? They have been down for at least 24 hours.

[Varl]

I noticed it was dead too yesterday. No clue as to why.

[McDeath]

Someone notified me that Planet ADnD is down also (might be back up like that site is a big deal anymore).

BTW, have any of you used any 3rd ed stuff and converted it backwards (monsters, spells, items, adventures, etc.). There's a lot of crap but I find myself picking through a handful of things at times. Conversion is a bitch but ol' Matan found a site that sort of helps:

AD&D 2nd Edition Hold Out - Conversion

[Algolei]

Wow, http://www.scribd.com/ looks like exactly the type of site I was looking for a while ago! I'm always having problems figuring out how and where to host documents online.

[Varl]

Someone notified me that Planet ADnD is down also (might be back up like that site is a big deal anymore).

BTW, have any of you used any 3rd ed stuff and converted it backwards (monsters, spells, items, adventures, etc.). There's a lot of crap but I find myself picking through a handful of things at times. Conversion is a bitch but ol' Matan found a site that sort of helps:

AD&D 2nd Edition Hold Out - Conversion

That site has some good idea on conversions for creatures. I made my own creature template for which to convert 3e creatures back to my hybrid template, so most of it is fairly straightforward. Spells and magic items are easy too. You take the effect of the new spell or item and simply wrap it into the 2e format. Done.

[McDeath]

I was going to start a thread called "Candlekeep Creeps!", but I figured this thread would work just as well. Maybe its my current headache and medical probs (my back that I went to the hospital to have x-rayed), but they seem a tad rash to Hal IMHO.

Check this out:

New 2E material for Undermountain

They zapped every last thing Hal had posted. It might be a policy they have but it doesn't look like the mod & admin have decided on anything yet. I have a feeling they're going to leave it dead and buried.

I was also doing an Undermountain search and found some other threads that make me want to barf about WOTC content and opinions on Halaster.

The Blackcloak dead? WHY, O WHY?
On Halaster (Spoilers)
The new Undermountain

Bleh.

[Minstrel]

I browsed the CK forums for a while and came across a snipped from Ed Greenwood talking about the 4e FR here. Basically he's saying "I'm not happy about the changes either but it's not my choice and I'm going to do my best to make the best of it".

Personally, I wish he'd just jump ship and sign on to create a world with troll lord games, or pied piper or kenzer (hackmaster), etc. His name could really add something to a company that's at least partially in it for love of the game.

And seriously, if even the core 4e books make it into the realms, what is there to save? If I wanted a world with fire breathing dragonblooded whatevers and teleporting demonlings appearing as commonly as dwarves and elves, I'd ask Piers Anthony to write it (at least he'd make it funny), not the guy who created the 1e grey boxed set.

[Varl]

It can't be a very fun position for Ed to be placed in, seeing what they're doing to his Realms, and ending up having to "do the best he can with it". That just sounds like cries of pain and sorrow to me.

[McDeath]

I would have loved to see Eds write up on the City of the Dead and the Dungeon of the Crypt. All of those original ideas he has laying around and damned WOTC dictating what he can or cannot do.

[Thorn Blackstone]

Seems to me that the CK site is not much different from the Planet-Tard site. Same strange fascination with idiotic combinations (paladin/assassins or Halaster/Manshoon hybrids), same obsessive, slavish dedication to WOTC, same apologetic excuse making in an attempt to "justify" WOTC's actions and convince themselves that the new 4E will be great after all, etc, etc.

It's a shame that they deleted all of Halaster's links. I know he mentioned some time ago writing the moderators or the site admin or something and trying to work out a way to let people know about the BIP Project. Last I heard, no response. I'm sure if there were, Halaster would have posted something and been excited. Seems to me that they're very possessive and clannish and totally unwilling to be friendly with other sites. Fuck 'em!

Where is the harm in letting a forum know about another forum where work of interest is being done? You'd think they could at least allow a single link. Bullshit.

WOTC has Marvel/DC Comics Syndrome. I believe that's what Halaster coined it as, but it describes the situation when a company no longer has competent writers who understand the subject matter and so they make radical, wild changes in an attempt to create "big events" that are designed to excite and draw in readers. What it creates in reality is a bastardized, boiled down mess of crap that has no coherence, no sense, no logic, and no soul. Marvel and DC comics have done this countless times in the past 20+ years. WOTC is guiltier than most when it comes to this.

You simply cannot have Undermountain without Halaster. The very concept fails without him. You can't have Manshoon "inherit" it, or something idiotic like that, and have it still work. You want to kill Halaster? Then destroy all of Undermountain and let it all be buried. Because Undermountain without Halaster is just a big hole in the ground, just another multi-level dungeon.

And I agree with Varl, Halaster, and the others who complain about all the deity killing in the FR. As Varl so eloquently put it, why bother to have a pantheon?

Setting the 4E version of the FR 100 years into the future is also the most idiotic thing I've ever heard of.

[Sangalor]

Seems to me that the CK site is not much different from the Planet-Tard site. Same strange fascination with idiotic combinations (paladin/assassins or Halaster/Manshoon hybrids), same obsessive, slavish dedication to WOTC, same apologetic excuse making in an attempt to "justify" WOTC's actions and convince themselves that the new 4E will be great after all, etc, etc.

It's a shame that they deleted all of Halaster's links. I know he mentioned some time ago writing the moderators or the site admin or something and trying to work out a way to let people know about the BIP Project. Last I heard, no response. I'm sure if there were, Halaster would have posted something and been excited. Seems to me that they're very possessive and clannish and totally unwilling to be friendly with other sites. Fuck 'em!

Where is the harm in letting a forum know about another forum where work of interest is being done? You'd think they could at least allow a single link. Bullshit.

WOTC has Marvel/DC Comics Syndrome. I believe that's what Halaster coined it as, but it describes the situation when a company no longer has competent writers who understand the subject matter and so they make radical, wild changes in an attempt to create "big events" that are designed to excite and draw in readers. What it creates in reality is a bastardized, boiled down mess of crap that has no coherence, no sense, no logic, and no soul. Marvel and DC comics have done this countless times in the past 20+ years. WOTC is guiltier than most when it comes to this.

You simply cannot have Undermountain without Halaster. The very concept fails without him. You can't have Manshoon "inherit" it, or something idiotic like that, and have it still work. You want to kill Halaster? Then destroy all of Undermountain and let it all be buried. Because Undermountain without Halaster is just a big hole in the ground, just another multi-level dungeon.

And I agree with Varl, Halaster, and the others who complain about all the deity killing in the FR. As Varl so eloquently put it, why bother to have a pantheon?

Setting the 4E version of the FR 100 years into the future is also the most idiotic thing I've ever heard of.

I'll address this post as I've been reading CK for years.

CK has alot of FR authors read/post on their site. Consequently they try very hard to avoid offending/upsetting either these authors or WOTC - they often edit out too-critical comments or controversial issues. There is no way that they would ever permit some of the comments on this site to be posted up on their boards. If your looking for total free-speech, don't go to CK as they have a very stringent posting policy and are constrained by their relationships with the authors/WOTC.

As to the membership - it is very mixed. There have been some extremely critical comments concerning 4th ed posted on threads and there have been some extremely supportive ones too. Of the regular posters, the majority would appear to be unsympathetic, but not hostile. Bearing in mind their relationship with WOTC authors, they will be reluctant to allow any significantly hostile posts as it could upset them esp. those involved in the transition material.

As to Hal's links - I would suggest that they deleted these as they would not encourage their membership or WOTC to come to these forums and read the hostile comments made here. Also, they probably do not support the idea of creating new material as against what has been published as this also may offend WOTC/authors.

All of this ties back to their relationship with the FR authors/WOTC (and their ethos).

I can't comment very much on the Marvel/DC issue. I stopped reading Marvel in the early 70's (after the Golden Age why bother?) and I've never read a DC comic (aside from Sandman). I can say that it appears that since I got back into gaming after a 10 yr break that WOTC made major changes to the game and esp. FR setting. Those changes and major setting events have escalated to the point where they have jumped 94 years into the future. I don't see this as a positive thing.

I was particularly dissapointed about the death of Halaster and the changes to Undermountain. Very shabby. I was also dissapointed by the death of a couple of the Skulls and the changes made to them etc. The explanation for Halaster's death was weak (and it wasn't even in a sanctioned FR product!).

The messing around with the Pantheon is shabby also. Unnecessary and difficult to follow. I didn't mind the ToT idea but I did resent the impact of the Chosen on the setting (cf. Shadows of the Avatar trilogy as one of the worst examples of Chosen impact on the setting.).

[Halaster Blackcloak]

The way I see it, there are a lot of loyal consumers there (not meant as a compliment by any means), and so they tend to be supportive of the nonsense. I've seen lots of strange posts along the lines of (almost verbatim):

"Well, I hate the changes they're making in 4E, but I'm going to buy it anyway because I'd hate to see the FR die."

Such pathetic statements turn my stomach. Such a weak, powerless, sheeple-like stance to have. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Why the fear of letting the official published version die? Do these people have actual lives or not?

I went through that argument in a toy collecting community years ago. Many of them ripped on me for refusing to buy the crappy figures a company was putting out. They had the same mindless sheep attitude..."If we don't support it totally, it might die and then we'll get nothing." Nonsense. I insisted that if we acted as sane consumers and actually refused to buy the crappy figures (while letting the company know that we weren't buying the crappy ones and that the decision was made precisely because they were crappy) while buying the well-done figures (and again praising the company for making those well), the company would be confronted with traditional economics that ruled from the days before people became mindless consumer zombies. The company would make money from the well done figures while the crappy ones would sit on the shelf collecting dust. They'd have incentive (and feedback!) to make good ones then. If they made good ones, they made money. If they made crappy ones, they lost money. A very simple, effective concept.

Instead, these morons insisted that no, Halaster is wrong. If we buy every piece of crap they put out, they'll know the line is successful and stay in business. So they bought all the crap, sometimes two or more copies of the same figure.

Guess who was right?

The company stopped the line entirely and it died. And, just as I predicted and argued, they started making crappier and crappier figures because they had no feedback demanding better. An executive said "Well, someone is buying this shit, so why bother to work harder to make it better?".

The problem is that collectors alone cannot keep a toy line in production. It needs to hit the toy stores and appeal to everyone. And since the figures got crappier and crappier, only the collectors were buying them. And that wasn't enough. So they killed the line.

So few people these days seem to have the balls to stand up for themselves. Emasculated society produces emasculated consumers. Companies don't care about complaints because they have a guaranteed army of repeat customers - the vast majority who will just keep forking over cash for the crap being shoveled out.

WOTC churns out crap because there are enough stupid people willing to continually invest in the new crap whether they like it or not. They literally contort their minds into convincing themselves that the new crap isn't indeed crap. I've seen this phenomenon so often that it stands out like a sore thumb. Sad.

And it's obvious that the end is near. They've churned out 3 new editions in roughly half the number of years it took for AD&D to come out with a single additional edition (going from 1st to 2nd). And each one is moving more away from pen and paper and traditional roleplaying and more into a computer/video/card-game hybrid. The crappier it gets, the harder it is to keep people buying. The only option i sto warp it into something entirely different, something dumbed down to appeal to the stupid masses. And that's precisely what we're seeing.

[Sangalor]

The way I see it, there are a lot of loyal consumers there (not meant as a compliment by any means), and so they tend to be supportive of the nonsense. I've seen lots of strange posts along the lines of (almost verbatim):

"Well, I hate the changes they're making in 4E, but I'm going to buy it anyway because I'd hate to see the FR die."

Such pathetic statements turn my stomach. Such a weak, powerless, sheeple-like stance to have. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Why the fear of letting the official published version die? Do these people have actual lives or not?

I went through that argument in a toy collecting community years ago. Many of them ripped on me for refusing to buy the crappy figures a company was putting out. They had the same mindless sheep attitude..."If we don't support it totally, it might die and then we'll get nothing." Nonsense. I insisted that if we acted as sane consumers and actually refused to buy the crappy figures (while letting the company know that we weren't buying the crappy ones and that the decision was made precisely because they were crappy) while buying the well-done figures (and again praising the company for making those well), the company would be confronted with traditional economics that ruled from the days before people became mindless consumer zombies. The company would make money from the well done figures while the crappy ones would sit on the shelf collecting dust. They'd have incentive (and feedback!) to make good ones then. If they made good ones, they made money. If they made crappy ones, they lost money. A very simple, effective concept.

Instead, these morons insisted that no, Halaster is wrong. If we buy every piece of crap they put out, they'll know the line is successful and stay in business. So they bought all the crap, sometimes two or more copies of the same figure.

Guess who was right?

The company stopped the line entirely and it died. And, just as I predicted and argued, they started making crappier and crappier figures because they had no feedback demanding better. An executive said "Well, someone is buying this shit, so why bother to work harder to make it better?".

The problem is that collectors alone cannot keep a toy line in production. It needs to hit the toy stores and appeal to everyone. And since the figures got crappier and crappier, only the collectors were buying them. And that wasn't enough. So they killed the line.

So few people these days seem to have the balls to stand up for themselves. Emasculated society produces emasculated consumers. Companies don't care about complaints because they have a guaranteed army of repeat customers - the vast majority who will just keep forking over cash for the crap being shoveled out.

WOTC churns out crap because there are enough stupid people willing to continually invest in the new crap whether they like it or not. They literally contort their minds into convincing themselves that the new crap isn't indeed crap. I've seen this phenomenon so often that it stands out like a sore thumb. Sad.

And it's obvious that the end is near. They've churned out 3 new editions in roughly half the number of years it took for AD&D to come out with a single additional edition (going from 1st to 2nd). And each one is moving more away from pen and paper and traditional roleplaying and more into a computer/video/card-game hybrid. The crappier it gets, the harder it is to keep people buying. The only option i sto warp it into something entirely different, something dumbed down to appeal to the stupid masses. And that's precisely what we're seeing.

I can't defend the stances of people who support buying the products for the motives you list. All I can say is that I note, like you, that some people invest a great deal (both financially and emotionally) into a hobby and don't like to see that investment end in disaster or feel incapable of stepping back and realising that they are contributing to the decline of their own hobby/interests. This is part of the human condition and I think its something like addiction/obsession.

In saying that, even you admit that they are not sympathetic to the 4th ed changes.

There is also another category of consumers who are merely curious - they argue from the intellectual inquiry position i.e. I'll try this out to make my own judgement. This is not a negative thing in itself but it can become a problem if they argue/perceive that this new material is representative of the D&D game.

[Zherbus]

"Well, I hate the changes they're making in 4E, but I'm going to buy it anyway because I'd hate to see the FR die."

It died as a solid product line well over a decade ago.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Sangalor wrote:

I can't defend the stances of people who support buying the products for the motives you list. All I can say is that I note, like you, that some people invest a great deal (both financially and emotionally) into a hobby and don't like to see that investment end in disaster or feel incapable of stepping back and realising that they are contributing to the decline of their own hobby/interests. This is part of the human condition and I think its something like addiction/obsession.

Addiction and obsession would fit the bill nicely. I hear so many of them with such desperation in their voices, as if their (real) world would end if their gaming world was no longer published.

In saying that, even you admit that they are not sympathetic to the 4th ed changes.

But many of them are sympathetic or even looking forward to it. And the WOTC sycophants will undoubtedly convince themselves that they like it, regardless of how they really feel.

There is also another category of consumers who are merely curious - they argue from the intellectual inquiry position i.e. I'll try this out to make my own judgement. This is not a negative thing in itself but it can become a problem if they argue/perceive that this new material is representative of the D&D game.

I know some people are like that, but I find it incomprehensible to think that way. I honestly cannot understand how anyone could not make an informed decision based on hearing about the basics and reading a few examples. It's almost as if they refuse to believe themselves and have such inner doubt that they feel compelled to prove themselves wrong or something.

Zherbus wrote:

It died as a solid product line well over a decade ago.

Amen, brother! Amen!

[Varl]

I can't defend the stances of people who support buying the products for the motives you list. All I can say is that I note, like you, that some people invest a great deal (both financially and emotionally) into a hobby and don't like to see that investment end in disaster or feel incapable of stepping back and realising that they are contributing to the decline of their own hobby/interests. This is part of the human condition and I think its something like addiction/obsession.

I fully admit to having a miniature collecting addiction, and this is one addiction I don't want to be cured of.

Companies can also fail through no fault of the supporting, spending, adoring fans. I fully and completely supported, through heavy purchasing, all of the Grenadier lines of metal miniatures back in the 80s and 90s. I still have hundreds, if not thousands, of them in my display cases. But even my overwhelming love for miniature collecting and painting couldn't keep Grenadier from dying, and they never released a single miniature I didn't like. My support for Grenadier mattered little in their grand scheme of things, even if I felt good supporting them.