With risk of starting a war.

[jeffx]

Here's a link some people might like to read and others will hate. I mean hate in the way.

http://www.gnomestew.com/specific-rpgs/ ... eastern-pa

It is saying something I've said several time already discussing a newer version of D&D. It is a lot more like older version than people care to admit.

[Algolei]

Let's see if I understand this argument.

4E has fewer rules than 3E. That makes it more like 1E than 3E was. Therefore if I want to play 1E, I should play 4E because, despite the fact that it's completely different than 1E, it's so much like 1E when compared to 3E that it's just like 1E. Although it's not. So if I want to play 1E, I should play 4E, because it's not as different as 3E was.

. . .

Why don't I just skip all that nonsense and play 1E, like I wanted to do in the first place?

[jeffx]

Why don't I just skip all that nonsense and play 1E, like I wanted to do in the first place?

You should play what you want. As long as you can get the books and can get players, play away. New editions never mean you can't play what you want.

And just to blur threads, here is another link people might find interesting. It is a primer for old school gaming. It is a free pdf download. I haven't finished reading it yet but so far it is interesting.
Quick Primer for Old School Gaming

[Algolei]

Bleah, I never play what I want. I'm too old, fat, and short for the NBA!

[jeffx]

Bleah, I never play what I want. I'm too old, fat, and short for the NBA!

That never stopped me! Oh, wait. Yes it did.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Only a completely ignorant moron would make the absurd claim that 4E is the "closest spiritual successor to 1E". Even being on drugs can't explain such nonsensical thinking. Perhaps the author was whacked on the head with a book bag full of 4E books or something. Brain trauma might explain it.

Yeah, Halaster's got a bug up his ass today.

[McDeath]

I'm not even sure I can mine anything from 4e to my homerule 2e stuff. The numbers and applications just confuse the hell out of me.

[Algolei]

The only things I've really heard about 4E are the "crazy nonsensical crap" that I would never want to introduce to my game.

And I hesitate to ask anyone for any good elements of the game, 'cause it might must start "one of THOSE discussions."

[tedopon]

The only things I've really heard about 4E are the "crazy nonsensical crap" that I would never want to introduce to my game.

And I hesitate to ask anyone for any good elements of the game, 'cause it might must start "one of THOSE discussions."

I'll go ahead and throw my two cents in, just to see movement on these forums.
4E blows as an rpg, but I'm pretty impressed with it as a tactical minis game. Me and some friends are talking about using it as the base system for a minis skirmish game.
And that's about all it is, really. A minis skirmish game. Whatever your opinion on 3.x (I personally had/have a good time with them, but my heart and the DnD game I run are 1e/2e/Hackmaster mishmash), at least it was written like a _roleplaying_ game. 4E is written like a minis game with a little extra fluff. If they had just marketed it as a minis game and dropped all pretense of it being an rpg, I would have applauded them on a job well done.
They didn't do that, and now I see an even bigger disconnect than we previously had with WoW. Traditional rpgs are on their way to extinction in youth culture. There has been a paradigm shift from shared narrative to micromanagement of individual abilities/tactics. Before anyone blames 3.x as the beginning of this downward spiral, let me refer you to 2.5 Adnd. Personally, I don't think either iteration of DnD are to blame. I don't even really know if there is blame to assign. I think that people are just more interested in straightforward railroading like you get in a typical computer game. That's a troubling shift in my opinion, especially given the lack of motivation in all facets of life our society has adopted. People are more and more eager to accept the status quo and take a "move along, nothing to see here" attitude in real life, so they can do more of the same later on in front of a computer screen.
My favorite thing about the current self inflicted gunshot wound to the foot WOTC has given itself is the online thing they promised would revolutionize roleplaying. All the demos look worse than current MMO chargens and the features _for which you pay a monthly $20 subscription fee_ of the rest of the prog are already available free on the internet. They keep pushing the dates back on the release because they want people to forget about it. The longer it takes, the more people lose interest.
Well, I got a little off track here, but thanks for the time. I'm just so fed up with the retrogame crowd constantly blaming newer rpgs for the decline of western civilization. My favorite games are 1e/2e/Hackmaster and BRP/RQ/CoC, and both those engines are 30 years old or more. just because they're my favorite systems doesn't mean I can't have fun with one made more recently that is different than them.
And like I said earlier, I will be using 4E for minis skirmishes. I think it's an awesome minis game.

[Algolei]

Isn't it kinda expensive and complicated for a simple minis game? Or am I thinking of skirmish games....

And that $20/month online subscription thing -- I always thought that would be a bad idea, but I wanted to see them make it work so I would know it was possible. I still hope it is possible. But I personally can't see spending $20 for one month to have something ephemeral like "membership." When I pay $20, I want to have something permanent I can hold onto afterward!

[tedopon]

Isn't it kinda expensive and complicated for a simple minis game? Or am I thinking of skirmish games....

Yes it is, but I didn't buy the books... >:)

And that $20/month online subscription thing -- I always thought that would be a bad idea, but I wanted to see them make it work so I would know it was possible. I still hope it is possible. But I personally can't see spending $20 for one month to have something ephemeral like "membership." When I pay $20, I want to have something permanent I can hold onto afterward!

It's totally possible, they just make unrealistic goals for their technology division, then they fire most of them when they're not getting the results they asked for. They just went through another round of dismissals.
First it was that character creator program with 3.0.
Then it was Etools.
Then it was Gleemax.
Now it is the online table thing.
The online table thing is easy. Take out the chargen and you basically have Fantasy Grounds that you pay a subscription fee to use.
My guess is we'll not see it up and running until the end of the year at the earliest, and it will be in beta for at least another year.

[Algolei]

...they just make unrealistic goals for their technology division, then they fire most of them when they're not getting the results they asked for.

I guess none of them read Dilbert. (It's my favourite comic! )

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Someone once described me as a cross between an elephant and a wolverine...a long memory and a nasty disposition towards the enemy. I think that fits. I remember all too well the nasty wars that took place on WOTC's forums 9 years ago when 3E was first released, and the shitty treatment us OOP gamers had to endure by WOTC employees. No matter how nice we played, they attacked endlessly. So I fought back and got banned more times that I can count by the Wizzer_Heads. Of course, they were stupid enough that they let me back on (I made convincing "apologies" which they bought like morons) and I ended up signing back up again and again and again. So I lost any respect I might have had for them simply because they were dumb enough to allow me back repeatedly. Even Steve at Dragonsfoot isn't that stupid!

Anyway, the point is that even if 4E were worth something beyond having something to laugh in derision at, I would still not use it. If I do look at a 4E product in the store (which I haven't done yet as I did with 3E), it'd be simply to find some aspect of it to ridicule.

On top of the abuse WOTC attempted to inflict on OOP gamers at their forums, they were also too damned greedy to simply allow others to produce material for OOP games or even use it legally for free. This caused more than a few artists who we would otherwise have had for the BIP Project to back away from it for fear of a cease and desist.



Which of course tells me that artists are cowards in addition to being unreliable, irresponsible egomaniacs.

Yes, 2009 is off to a rough start. It's currently -51 degrees F in Chicago and my car is frozen dead.

And throw in how they've mistreated Gary Gygax and others, and well, you get the idea.

Anyway, I simply have no use for anything WOTC puts out. It's all overpriced crap designed to enslave consumers and get them addicted to their overpriced crap. I cannot find a redeeming quality to either 3E or 4E.

Luckily there was once a company called TSR and a guy named Gary Gygax who produced material that will last me all of this lifetime and all of the next, should reincarnation prove be true.

[Algolei]

Someone once described me as a cross between an elephant and a wolverine

Me too!

...a long memory and a nasty disposition towards the enemy.

Oh. Not me. I'm just fat and smelly and I eat roadkill.

[Varl]

It's totally possible, they just make unrealistic goals for their technology division, then they fire most of them when they're not getting the results they asked for. They just went through another round of dismissals.

I find this ironic considering how I know and own no less than 3 independently developed tabletop programs for running virtual/electronic mapping. If they can create one, what's WotC's problem with the funds they have available? LOL. These indies have created fairly decent, workable programs too on very little to no money too.

First it was that character creator program with 3.0.
Then it was Etools.
Then it was Gleemax.
Now it is the online table thing.
The online table thing is easy. Take out the chargen and you basically have Fantasy Grounds that you pay a subscription fee to use.
My guess is we'll not see it up and running until the end of the year at the earliest, and it will be in beta for at least another year.

....and by then, we'll have even better private emulators released by independent developers that run circles around anything WotC creates and wants to charge you to bug test for them.