Undermountain5e

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Slade88green wrote:

One a different note, I have lost my copy of the forgotten realms atlas cd that had all the maps for the realms. One of those maps that I miss the most was undermountain level 5. Its the only place I have seen a map of level 5 that is the scale and scope of the other undermountain 2nd ed maps. Does anyone here have a copy of this product that can post a picture of the level 5 map?

Is this the Level 5 map you're talking about?

I purchased the 5e undermountain yesterday. From a fairly quick look through it I have seen small levels, no sub levels and pretty easy travel from one level to another. They did create areas leading off the maps they made and labeled them as passages to the expanded dungeon. The levels have an average of somewhere around 30 rooms with 4 room descriptions per page. I dont get all the undermountain products to run as is in whatever edition they made it for. I get them so I can take what I like and add it to undermountain as it should be. BTW, then made Halaster so he could die, but never permanently. He comes back after 1-10 days

Sounds as stupid and lame as I expected. Four rooms described per page?!?! What crap! In the original box set, the most you saw (for smaller rooms) was 2 rooms per page. Many of the rooms took 3-4 pages to detail (for example, Room #48 alone runs 3 full pages, Room #49 alone runs 4 full pages, Room #68 runs 5 full pages, etc). Four rooms per page? You can fit 3-4 Areas of Interest per page, but not full rooms.

I'd love to hear more about how they managed Halaster and how he can't die but resurrects in 1-10 days and what level they made him.

[slade88green]

Post keeps messing up. Lets try this again. Here is a preview of what level 1 looks like. It is tiny in comparison. Basically the size of the core rooms on the original map. http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2018/11/ ... ssive.html

They made Halaster a 20th level wizard which is maximum level in 5e. They gave him special abilities as well and claim he is a challenging fight for 20th level characters. The dungeon itself resurrects him instead of clones activating.[/img]

[slade88green]

Yup, thats the one. Thanks.

[McDeath]

From that link:

And that’s all we’ve got for now. But Halaster Blackcloak will, I’m sure, have more to say about all this.

Source: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2018/11/ ... ssive.html

THE ORIGINAL!! (Seems this site cropped off the borders)


Remember this sideway map:

Expedition to undermountain Layout - 3.5ed

archive


Next for 4th, Halls of Undermountain, I think we get only 1 level

I’m trying to see if this is just a small piece of the original in 2nd (note the passages saying it “leads to expanded dungeon.”


I’d say WOSBRO might milk future products to install map segments. The map looks very printable. If done in segments it reminds me of this site:
1d30 press


Btw, this rug piece popped up in my map search.

Now I wanna map it.

Wandering dwarf excerpt

[McDeath]

Hal did you ever score a grid size x,y for the undermountain maps? I seem to recall you did. That would be my only addition on all sides of the map is numbered coordinates. I’ve loved x,y for ages.

Check the amazon reviews on the map packs. I’m guessing they were expecting what we were but they are laminated 8.5x11 pages. I guess laminated so you can draw and erase on them?


There are also some videos by a few of the developers: UM Videos
Maybe I should shrink that first picture but you know... it sort of displays the POWER and WALLOP FACTOR of the original. And that’s just 1 map.

Now to be fair they say they fully developed each little section of the dungeon to allow the rest to be a sandbox. Still, UM is huge for a reason. A total newb to ever hearing UM might be impressed until they saw the maps that were in the original. So there’s some fuel to fire you up to once again work on the project.

Hopefully new blood can be added to the forums. I honestly doubt I’d be on the net if my brother hadn’t bought this phone. The 2 hours a day I get at the library 5-week is just my DL time.

My physical archives in storage and myself living a life not very optimal. Sucks living out of a bag and on a cot. Beats the streets and someone had to look out for my parents.

On the plus side... no one claimed that 1.5 billion lottery ticket. Maybe it’ll end up in my PO box in time to cash in. :p 🧐

[Halaster Blackcloak]

McDeath wrote:

Hal did you ever score a grid size x,y for the undermountain maps? I seem to recall you did. That would be my only addition on all sides of the map is numbered coordinates. I’ve loved x,y for ages.

No, but that would be a great idea. Makes it easier to find things!

Check the amazon reviews on the map packs. I’m guessing they were expecting what we were but they are laminated 8.5x11 pages. I guess laminated so you can draw and erase on them?

That 5E map sucks. All they did was take out the core area and delete all the rest of Level 1. Stupid!

Looks like the reviews proved me right. The maps are just partial maps, the room descriptions are pathetic, and the print is too small to read. Crap, as predicted.

I couldn't even stomach those videos of drug-addict looking idiots. And why are they saying his original name was Halather? It wasn't Halather. It was Hilather. Idiots! RTFSM! (Read The Fucking Source Material)

Now to be fair they say they fully developed each little section of the dungeon to allow the rest to be a sandbox. Still, UM is huge for a reason. A total newb to ever hearing UM might be impressed until they saw the maps that were in the original. So there’s some fuel to fire you up to once again work on the project.

Watered down maps. So now the DM not only has to create new content for rooms, he has to create his own maps. They lost one of the great charms of Undermountain. I can stair at those maps for hours imagining stories of what lurks where and so on. But no, they give the customer a watered down map that looks like it belongs on the back cover of a 14 pg. adventure module.

Hopefully new blood can be added to the forums. I honestly doubt I’d be on the net if my brother hadn’t bought this phone. The 2 hours a day I get at the library 5-week is just my DL time.

I need to port all this material over to the new site. This one isn't working right, and I can't fix it.

My physical archives in storage and myself living a life not very optimal. Sucks living out of a bag and on a cot. Beats the streets and someone had to look out for my parents.

I hated having to get a storage unit when I had to move to a smaller place. Totally inconvenient.

On the plus side... no one claimed that 1.5 billion lottery ticket. Maybe it’ll end up in my PO box in time to cash in. :p 🧐

Don't forget me when you do!

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Slade88green wrote:

Post keeps messing up. Lets try this again. Here is a preview of what level 1 looks like. It is tiny in comparison. Basically the size of the core rooms on the original map. http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2018/11/ ... ssive.html

What pathetic, fraudulent advertising!

"Dungeon of the Mad Mage's maps are intricate and massive."

"This map is massive."

Call of reality to Wizards of the Coast - IT FITS ON THE BACK COVER OF A FUCKING 14 PG. 1E ADVENTURE MODULE!

They are mini-slices of tiny areas of the original maps. That is not "massive", nor is it intricate.

Sigh. WOTC should change its name to Crap Factory for Stupid Fanboys.

[McDeath]

Oh god! I’d sooo be investing the money here and my Australian pal at EUO and some other hobbies. My house would definitely have a good old fashioned study with fireplace and built in shelves for reading. That’s more $$$ than a million of my currently lifetimes would see.

On the online gaming front the old Aion game got completely disemboweled. It was pretty bad before being NCSOFT orientalist but the music and scenery was pleasant. MMOs ... don’t bother as they get destroyed again and again. I played that game a bit in 2014 after a bout of depression. I was in Missouri and I hated my sister in law. Her annoyance pushed me to move back to Oregon. Sheesh.. my moves:
1 Oregon ——-> Georgia ——> Kentucky ——> oregon
2. Oregon ——> Missouri ——> oregon
3. Oregon ——> Texas ——> Oregon
4. Oregon ——> Georgia ——> Oregon
5. Oregon........ hopefully no where.

It’s not many but enough that I hate moving. I didn’t even list all the people I helped move.

[Tawnos76]

I saw the Undermountain book at my game store and it is so thin. I do not know how they can even call it a true Dungeon crawl and give so little information. It is if someone made a Cliff notes version of all of Undermountain and sold it as the real thing.

I have gotten some new players into 2nd edition recently. One was a new player that had only known 4th and now loves the older edition.
We starting in Undermountain Skullport and used the Spelljammer adventure from Undermountain to enter into space.

[McDeath]

You sure it wasn’t the map pack? The main book is supposed to be just over 256 pages.

Map pack details:
Description
Contents:
• 1 pocket Folder
• 24 laminated maps


256 page book wouldn’t be enough anyway but that’s how HABRO of the Coast does it.

I did make a purchase earlier this month despite the fact I have limited space.
From: http://www.diffworlds.com/gamelords.htm

I purchased all the Haven and Thieves Guild products they had. Seems they ran out of TG boxed set and TG#2. Not bad though. I’ll be scanning and
pdf-ifying them eventually for digital archival purposes as currently they can’t be found. I’m looking into the VU digital wand scanner again. They are up to model 2 and it looks promising. Supposedly scans some objects easier than the flatbed. Here’s hoping.

Speaking of archive there is an incomplete old project of the Infernus on the web. The archives and the Thieves guild (ironic) only have chapters 1-7. I scanned chapter 8 as I lost the old pdf ages ago but still had my physical prints. You can pick it up here: The Infernus cp1-8
Forgive the scan but it is what it is as the printing wasn’t great.

[Tawnos76]

It was not the map pack.
It was the book and it is not very thick at all. No where near the size of all the Undermountain books together from 2nd edition. It seems they took it all and just did a quick down and dirty version of it. It just does not seem like enough to truly be an accurate representation of The Dungeons of the Mad Mage.

No where near the right size. Now the Art of Arcana is a good size book that is mostly old school with a few images from the newer but is a great historical book on Dungeons and Dragons. I recommend it to lovers of D&D.

[McDeath]

They want a hefty enough price for this undermountain. Sounds disappointing. I suppose I’ll wait for the pdf. I only have most of the 2e UM (minus Th Lost Level as I printed that from old WotC site). Prices for the 3e, 4e books of UM are ridiculously over priced by the sellers. 5o,70, 100$+. Eh... no.

I guess if I was a collector and had room maybe. The original is the best and I still hold out Hal will finish the project for ROUIII. I wish my days weren’t so routine and tiring. I caretake/caregive my parents and property and my tasks are by bike or foot. I don’t drive and couldn’t afford it. I do manage a few hours a day at the library 5-days a week most of the time. It keeps my sanity.

I will probably get tipsy on my birthday. I bought some mission mud (ale) and several bottles of BLACK BOSS a 9.4% alcohol content ale. I have some wine as well. I rarely drink but I’ve prepped my own party for myself and my parent from the beginning of the month. Need to make the cake, make a party Chex mix, find some dvd movies and bike and get Chinese. This whole month I’ve bought my own presents like the haven and thieves guild, computer hard drives, mouse, retro game pads etc.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Tawnos76 wrote:

It was the book and it is not very thick at all. No where near the size of all the Undermountain books together from 2nd edition. It seems they took it all and just did a quick down and dirty version of it. It just does not seem like enough to truly be an accurate representation of The Dungeons of the Mad Mage.

No where near the right size.

Typical WOTC. Just churning out crap for the lemmings. I got off that train when 2E ended.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

McDeath wrote:

The original is the best and I still hold out Hal will finish the project for ROUIII.

It's so close. I hate how every time I make progress, it's then months off due to schedule issues. Never time or energy. I'm hoping that now with the holidays here, I'll have some more free time and energy to wrap it up.

[McDeath]

Some days I have a lot (and those days I work out in my homemade gym out in a yurt under a tree. Other days drag ass.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

What's hard now is getting all the work done for Thanksgiving along with prepping the Xmas decorations. It takes me a good week to get the entire apt/condo decorated. And I hate spending that first week of Xmas (that starts the day after Thanksgiving) working on Xmas decorating. I want to start enjoying the season!

Last year the fucktards at the local co-op (a liberal haven of helpless hippies freaks and bliss bunnies who, if they spot a Trump or MAGA hat, forget all their "morals" and high-falutin posturing and become total assholes worthy of a foot up the ass, which I have no problem handing out) messed up my turkey order. They were supposed to get them in fresh, told me it would be fresh, and I told them I'd pick it up on Wed. so I could brine it for Thursday. Well, the idiots got it wrong, they were getting them in frozen. Try thawing a 16 lb. turkey overnight when it's frozen like a bowling ball. The idiots (including and in fact especially the manager) acted like it was my fault, argued they didn't fuck up, and refused to give me a discount. So I cussed out the manager and workers in front of nice crowd of people and let them know there would be retribution. I called my bank, demanded a full reversal of charges as it was fraud, and got a full refund - it was a $65 organic turkey!

Sucks to be them. Then I went back to the store and rubbed the manager's face in it and told him how much I enjoyed my FREE turkey on their dime. Assholes. I hate incompetence and slacker attitude far worse than I hate evil. It should be legal to kill people like that on sight, I swear to god.

Anyway, I think today I can finally wind down and start relaxing into what's left of the season. We better get some damned snow this year!

I'm looking forward to doing more work on RoUIII.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Back on topic for the 5E slop they released for Undermountain...

I'll tell you all what the problem is. The game is now being written by retards who grew up playing later editions (3E+), who do not have a grounding in the roots of the game, who are not well read, who do not understand archetypes, and who are not all that bright. Worst of all, they don't have the heart for the game. To them it's a mere mental exercise in trying to think up new shit to sell. It's all driven from a marketing viewpoint. It's not a labor of love or a passion the way it was for Gygax, Kuntz, Greenwood, and other great D&D authors.

I'll put up Ruins of Undermountain III: The Deadly Levels any time, any day, against anything that's been published for Undermountain since the original box set and I guarantee no one will deny that what I'm doing eclipses the rest of that garbage by entire universes. I'm not just trying to toot my horn or claim I'm the world's greatest writer. But what I'm writing comes from a passion that has no comparison in WOTC. It's truly a labor of love, a work of art to be shared with other fans. You can't compare that to factory-churned out crap that was designed to fit a pre-determined number of pages and print size by people who don't understand the game.

It's like comic books. Starting in the 90's, we got artists who grew up not going to art school, but rather learning by copying not-so-good other artists. Now we have artists who think that 4 panels on a page showing nothing more than a series of dramatic poses culminating in graphic violence with a spray of blood is storytelling. Crap art. Crap product. No more storytelling artists like Byrne, Kirby, Toth, Kane, etc.

Talent in an industry is like anything else. It has to be imparted to and passed down to the next generation lest it become a lost art.

[McDeath]

I should look into the bios of the staff producing the 5e UM stuff. Or not... be kind of a waste of my time.

Atm, I’m working on old Commodore 64, aopleIi, Dos, Amiga game ACS (Adventure Construction Set). I’ve finally got enough leads and help for emulation to have all the disks and base adventures emulated. I’m going through each writing up differences, creating tilesets, writing spreadsheets, and maybe converting some of Stuart Smiths earlier games like Fracas To ACS.

Eventually, I plan to explore the Dos driven ACK (Adventure Creation Kit).

I also plan to scan the gamelord products I bought and turn to pdf (I will be looking for Thieves guild 1 & 2 though as I need them to complete the set.

And there’s other old projects. It’s nothing huge in raw creativity but filling holes in the digital data stream I see missing. I love “retro” tbh.

[McDeath]

Damn millennial kids.... Woodsy is with us though..
Woodsy one angry owl

[McDeath]

Oh Hal, look what favorite monster you stuck in your dungeon:
Freddy Lava Child Kruger

bah-da-bum-bah-bah.... I’m lovin’ it. Let’s get some McDonalds.

Lava children god they get worse.

[McDeath]

Oh Hal, look what favorite monster you stuck in your dungeon:
Freddy Lava Child Kruger
[fimg width=600 height=600]http://i.imgur.com/CNP4tjI.jpg[/fimg]
bah-da-bum-bah-bah.... I’m lovin’ it. Let’s get some McDonalds.

Lava children god they get worse.

[McDeath]

I’ll fix that monstrosity when I can. Fimg isn’t working atm.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

I resized that lava child pic...damn was it big! Made the page scroll too much. But good lord, who wants lava children in Undermountain?

[McDeath]

HASBRO since it’s a children’s toy company. But that thing is freakier than the original. I haven’t looked where they placed it; I merely saw the critter entry and rolled my eyes.

Note: 2e Fiend Folio didn’t even include them.

Lomion 2e Monstrous Index

They go through all 2e products. Not so much a nod of Alfred E Lava child. The clown one is creepy enough to be a Ravenloft being.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

First, thanks to McDeath for helping me find a pdf file of this travesty. And yes, it is a travesty, a tragedy, a horrific mess of utter shit. And those are its good points!

First, let me post a list of the Levels and the number of pages dedicated to each:

1 = 13
2 = 15
3 = 15
4 = 9
5 = 11
6 = 13
7 = 13
8 = 7
9 = 17
10 = 15 (Muiral's level)
11 = 7
12 = 11
13 = 6
14 = 13
15 = 15
16 = 11
17 = 9
18 = 11
19 = 9 (Slime Level)
20 = 11
21 = 11
22 = 11
23 = 13 (Halaster & Trobriand & Arcturia)
Skullport = 3

Ok, where to start? First, Skullport. It's one of the major sites of Undermountain and a hotbed of activity of all kinds. Note to WOTC...Skullport was better detailed in a fucking Dragon Magazine article than it is in your stupid release! In fact, the magazine article was 6 pages long - twice as much info as in the 5E garbage.

And what about room counts? Come on! An average of 11-13 pages to detail a single level? I've written single room descriptions that long! The Slime Level - so ripe with possibilities - is a mere 9 pages long? In Ruins of Undermountain III: The Deadly Levels, the Areas of Interest alone took me 11 pages to detail. I've got 12 or 13 core rooms written for it, and already that is taking 27 pages in size 10 font. It'll clock in at (when all 42 rooms are detailed) about 60 pages or more.

Halaster's Lair consists of 13 pages. Oh look! It's got hobgoblins! That'll teach those damned adventurers to face off against one of the most powerful wizards of all time in his deep level that is supposed to be (according to the original box set) "one gauntlet of the nastiest traps the DM can devise". Hobgoblins.

And why are Arcturia and Trobriand shacking up with Halaster in his level instead of occupying their own levels? What kind of sick shit is that? Muiral gets a whole whopping 15 pages for his level. Which says a lot about the idiots who wrote this piece of crap, because Halaster's level is only 13 pages long. Can someone explain that insanity to me? Never mind. I don't want to understand the idiots who wrote it.

Why is Arcturia turned into a lich? And why does the hideously talentless art for her look like it was ripped off from an early design I posted at Back In Print years ago? Coincidence? Maybe.

I'm sure some fucktard at WOTC thought it was witty and cool to turn Trobriand into an iron golem. I just yawned at the stupidity and rolled my eyes.

And, as I predicted, the room descriptions were more like footnotes. Here is an actual room description from a room on HALASTER'S LAIR...the "ultimate gauntlet" level of all of Undermountain"...

Room #16 Broom Room

This room is empty except for a dusty wooden broom that leans against the far wall.

Well knock me the fuck over with excitement! Someone pass the tranquilizers! How exciting to find an empty fucking broom closet on the ultimate level of Undermountain! I'm not sure my brain or my heart can withstand such exciting, epic level adventuring on the most deadly level of the most deadly dungeon of all time!

Or how about the reversed library in Room #2 (again on Halaster's level)? Just a standard reverse gravity ensorcelled room. It has some useful books, a bit of treasure. No guardians, no traps, no mysteries to solve, nothing fun or exciting or interesting. Yawn.

Note #2 to WOTC - 21 small rooms a "gauntlet" does not make.

You're gonna love this...going against all the established rules of the game, somehow Trobriand transferred his life force into an iron golem and is also able to cast spells while "living" inside it. What does he have protecting his totally vulnerable body, which is in stasis in Room #11? Sit down folks...

Two whole fucking scaladars! Not one but TWO of them! Geez...is anyone else thinking that he's hoping someone just comes along and slays his body? Because 2 scaladar are far less than a mage of his stature would leave on such a deep level to guard his body. But hey, modern WOTC writers never use their brains when writing, do they? This stuff is just mental diarrhea. Seriously.

Then there's a guy walking around with a rabbit head (transformed by Arcturia). His name is Rabbithead. I'm sure some drooling fucktard writer at WOTC though that was just hilarious! Oh I can't stop laughing! Sigh.

They keep talking about Jessirya Kestellharp coming back to Undermountain to take over if Halaster dies. Ummm...WOTC? Come close here, let me whisper something in your ears. Kestellharp left Undermountain, became the Magister, and then died. She ain't coming back to Undermountain. Thought you might like to know that.

So pathetic. Such utter crap. What sort of loser would sign his name to this work of garbage and not thereafter hang himself in the basement out of sheer embarrassment? What sort of fool buys this tome of trash and doesn't demand a refund? I mean, please! I'm not even going to comment on the statue of Halaster riding a donkey. I'm not making that up.

This is why I say I'd prefer to see D&D die. At this point, WOTC is desecrating its corpse.

If I get time, I'll go over the details of just Halaster's pathetic level and show everyone just how lame this product is.