Obscure rule about Holy Avenger swords and planar travel

[Halaster Blackcloak]

I was outlining a copy of the Manual of the Planes (1E) and I came across an obscure rule I'd forgotten over the decades and which I never recall ever seeing anywhere else. On pg. 82, it states that unlike most magical weapons, a Holy Avenger sword does not lose pluses for each plane away from its home plane it travels. It remains the same on the Abyss or anywhere else as it does on the Prime Material Plane.

[McDeath]

Yeah, i faintly recall that tidbit. I'm not sure if say Planescape addressed the sword properties.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

You've got a better memory than me! I'd forgotten that tidbit for decades!

I don't think it was ever referenced in Planescape though, because I would have remembered it and been just as shocked reading it then. Let me check something...

Ok, just checked the PS Campaign Setting Box Set. It doesn't mention holy avenger swords keeping their powers. It does reference how cursed items retain their curse. So no, I don't think it was ever mentioned in PS. It looks like the only reference to that issue was that one mention in D&DG.

[McDeath]

I'll do a glance over at the dragondex and see if an article/question was addressed in dragon magazine.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Cool! It'll be interesting to see if it was ever referred back to via Sage Advice. For the life of me, I can't recall it ever being mentioned anywhere other than in the original 1E Manual of the Planes. I searched all the PS material I have an not a mention anywhere.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

I've also been thinking...

Why would a holy avenger sword function on other planes removed from its originating plane? After all, priests lose ability to gain spells from their gods as they move further from the god's plane. Why would it be any different for the sword?

[McDeath]

I dunno. I read the entry in the 1e MOP and it looks like it loses some power in the astral. People pointed me towards the planescape Planewalkers handbook and the charts near the end before the glossary. I can't say that helped any and i was hoping this would have been addressed. Dragon Mag had an 2e article on NEW weapons FROM the planes but nothing about paladins and their holy swords.

Weapons, planar. "Bazaar of the Bizarre: The Planar Armory" Glen Jukes 272(74) D&D2
(SEE ALSO Celestials; Demons; Devils; Elementals; Fiends; Gods; PLANESCAPE setting; Planetouched; RAVENLOFT)

but the Planeswalkers Handbook has an extensive chart on page 157 showing all the known planes and the modifiers for how each magical item's bonuses are affected by each plane, from the Prime to Ysgard.

From MOP 1e on page 82 has a little note just before monks:

* A holy sword carried into the outer planes by a paladin does not lose any pluses (in fact it regains those pluses lost for travel into the Astral Plane).

So, I'm a tad stumped on this.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

The only item I recall that retains (actually gains) pluses on other planes is a sword of the planes. The holy avenger issue is indeed puzzling. I do love the idea of a paladin being able to actually use a sword like that (a holy avenger) in a trip to the lower planes, but the mechanics make no sense based on the rules.

[Tawnos76]

Seems like it acts more like a relic then just an enchanted sword.

Was it created by the god for the Paladin and therefore has stronger enchantments that stay as it was created not on the prime material plane but within Celestia itself and given down to the gods followers?

It would seem that it holds properties different then regular + swords so as a DM I would want to come up with a reason that it retains these abilities and this would seem a good reason it might hold its bonuses as it was made to be taken against the other planar creatures whether or not they visit the Prime Material or if the holder goes after them in their own Plane.

[McDeath]

So I posed the question at DF hoping the autistic Rules Lawyers could dig up something. Best I got was this:

There are other weapons that are not affected by the plane they are on such as the transient sword which retains its +2 bonus on every plane (Planewalker's Handbook, page 141), the scythe/sickle of flame which retains its +3 enchantment on any plane (Planewalker's Handbook, page 140), and fiendslayer spears which also retain their +2 bonus on any plane (Warriors of Heaven, page 32).

Not 2e, but the Planeswalkers Handbook has an extensive chart on page 157 showing all the known planes and the modifiers for how each magical item's bonuses are affected by each plane, from the Prime to Ysgard.

Why on earth wouldn't PS address this? They don't address the supposed +6 holy avenger from 1e UA either. And the fact it says "holy sword" could beany holy blade not just an the holy avenger. In fact, lesser holy blades aren't really touched on in either edition I don't believe. (Except DM sandbox ones maybe)

I saw this in dragondex
Holy and unholy: FORGOTTEN REALMS "Holy Swords of the Realms" Lloyd Brown 243(35) D&D2

And this mess on Paladins:
Paladins:
Allies, dealing with "Dealing With Friends and Allies" Mark A. Hart 325(97) D&D3

Armor, magical "Bazaar of the Bizarre: Armor of Virtue" Jonathan M. Richards 275(88 ) D&D3

Chivalry "Three Faces of Chivalry, The" Len Carpenter 178(10) D&D1

Class features, variant "Law and Chaos" Jonathan Drain 349(92) D&D3

Code of "Thou Shalt Play This Way" Robert J. Bezold 51(36) D&D1
Corruption, detecting "Paladin Lore" Joshua Cole 335(90) D&D3

Creating "Making of a Paladin, The" Eric Oppen 154(16) D&D2

Descriptions: Alternate "Not Your Father's Do-Gooder" Mike McArtor 323(104) D&D3

Desert-based "Paladins of the Desert" Troy E. Taylor 334(90) D&D3

Domains, clerical "Paladin Domains" Cristo Yanez 328(90) D&D3

Dual classing "New Jobs For Demi-Humans" Gary Gygax 96(8 ) D&D1

Flaws "Flaws for Paladins" Richard Pocklington 324(96) D&D3

Followers "Follow the Leader" Carl Sargent 178(22) D&D2

Gnome "Daydream Believers" Alvin Neo 329(94) D&D3

GREYHAWK, of "Paladins of Greyhawk" Gary Holian 306(96) D&D3

Historical "Historical Holy Knight, The" F. Wesley Schneider 326(98 ) D&D3

Indian: Kshatriya "Caste of Characters" Michael A. Selinker 225(24) D&D2

Kits, character
Keeper of the Veil "Grim Callings" Steve Berman 252(29) D&D2

Non-traditional types "Pigeonholed Paladins" Joshua Cole 327(90) D&D3

Purification feats "Purification Feats" Amber E. Scott 337(98 ) D&D3

Quest ideas "101 Paladin Quests" Jonathan M. Richards 257(56) D&D2

Races allowed in 3rd edition "Unusual Suspects" James Wyatt 275(32) D&D3
Reasons for service "Why Do You Serve?" Chris DeKalb 336(104) D&D3

References "Paladin Guide" Amber E. Scott 358(92) D&D3

Roleplaying "'Good' Does Not Mean 'Boring'" Scott Bennie 148(24) D&D1

Spell selection "Preferred Prayers" Brian Cortijo 333(90) D&D3

Spells of "Blessings of War" Amber E. Scott 299(74) D&D3

Standards of goodness "It's Not Easy Being Good" Roger E. Moore 51(33) D&D1

Stealth "Paladin By Night, A" Joshua Cole 330(91) D&D3

Substitution levels:
Paladin of Light "Eternal Light, The" Chris Tulach 340(47) D&D3

Solstice knight "Solstice Knight" Hal Maclean 338(94) D&D3

Variants "Champions of the Divine" James Jacobs 310(46) D&D3

"Plethora of Paladins, A" Christopher Wood 106(45) D&D1

Evil "Blackguards" James Jacobs 312(18 ) D&D3

Wyrmslayers "Wyrmslayers" Alvin Neo 332(90) D&D3

[McDeath]

. Ah.. that's 8 )

I did see some of the other swords in complete paladins handbook but still nothing under those or description of paladin using any holy sword as far as retaining bonuses across the planes.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Leave it to the ever-anxious-to-provide-an-answer-even-though-I-don't-know-what-I'm-talking-about idiots at DF to post an answer that is as ignorant as it is irrelevant. Yes, I'm talking about Ravens Craig.Although there are a lot of others like him trolling that cesspool over the years.

I have no idea why he would post that reply about the fiend slayer and scythe. Clearly that has nothing to do with the question. We're talking about standard items taken from the Prime Material Plane to the Outer Planes and elsewhere as described in various rule books, and how they lose pluses when they leave the Prime Material Plane.

The scythe/sickle of flame is forged on the upper or outer planes so it's extra-planar. It doesn't originate on the Prime Plane, so not relevant. Same for the transient sword, which supposedly has ties to no plane at all, so of course it doesn't lose pluses. The fiendslayer is forged on Arborea ,an outer plane.

I swear, you have to draw pictures for some of the people over there, and even then they don't comprehend.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

McDeath wrote:

Why on earth wouldn't PS address this? They don't address the supposed +6 holy avenger from 1e UA either. And the fact it says "holy sword" could beany holy blade not just an the holy avenger. In fact, lesser holy blades aren't really touched on in either edition I don't believe. (Except DM sandbox ones maybe)

Yeah, very strange that PS didn't address it. Probably because nobody remembered that one isolated mention of the rule I suppose. Still, you'd think they'd have read over the MotP while creating PS, since PS simply builds on and expands the MotP. But since it's just one line, I can see it getting overlooked. Or they simply decided to negate that one instance that goes against the rules.

As to why it wasn't addressed in UA, it's because UA came out before MotP did. UA was published in '85, MotP didn't come out until '87. I don't remember off hand any section of UA dealing with taking items to other planes, so that's probably why.

But hell, I think the Rule of Cool applies here. I think I'll always allow holy avenger swords to retain their powers on other planes. Makes it a whole lot more exciting. Plus, doing it that way makes it so much easier to attract the attention of the fiends who are affected by such a powerful weapon!

[McDeath]

There was some further discussion so I asked how are powers vs powers affecting when fighting on opposing planar realms ie Cuthbert vs say Asmodeus in hell or Primus vs Ygorl in Limbo? If they aren't affected being away from their home plane i theorizethe paladins faith and holy sword channels their divinity through the holy blade retaining the bonus. Of course the blade gas to be unsceathed and held/activated by the paladin as joe schmo henchman is just going to have a hunk of metal in effect.

I mean why the hell not. I might pull up that paladin in hell adventure and take a looksie.

Meh

Additional Help
If the PCs consult a sage well versed in the Outer Planes, he warns them that journeying there could result in a loss of potency in certain magical items, alterations to spells, and a loss in priestly power. He can give them a few specifics about Hell if they ask, and about devils and their vulnerabilities.

The remaining priests of Neheod warn any PC priests that their power may diminish significantly on the lower planes. To help alleviate this, the priests give each cleric a scroll containing the following spells: cure light wounds, neutralize poison, cure serious wounds, native item, cure critical wounds, heal, and raise dead.

Native item is a new spell. Once exposed to it, a PC cleric can pray for it (assuming access to the Astral sphere).

NATIVE ITEM (Enchantment/Charm Level 4) Sphere: Astral
Range: Touch
Duration: 1 turn/level
Area of Effect: 1 magical item
Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 4
Saving Throw: None

When magical items are taken from their plane of creation, they often lose some of their potency. Those particularly affected are items with "pluses": magical weapons, armor, and rings or cloaks of protection. This spell temporarily restores the original level of enchantment to one item so that it functions as if it were on its home plane; the spell grants an item its original "plus" for the duration.

If a person carries more than one item enchanted with this spell, there is a 10% chance per item (2 = 20%, 3 = 30%, etc.) that a backlash of planar energy will occur. The burst inflicts 6d6 points of damage on the person holding the items and also cancels all native item spells in effect on that character's items. Additionally, there is a 20% chance that each item will be drawn back to its plane of origin (check each item separately). The player checks for backlash each time another item with this spell cast on it is added to his possessions.

To cast native item, the priest rubs the magical item with the material component of the spell: a bit of soil or water (or the closest equivalent) from the item's plane of origin.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

I can't recall the exact source, but there was something written about how no power would ever travel to another power's plane for confrontation. Probably a PS reference. Even so, I'd argue that - being gods - their powers would not diminish on another plane.

I'd also think that even though a holy sword might be drawing energy from a deity, that still wouldn't suffice to provide it with a non-reduction in power when on planes removed several levels, since the paladin or priest himself cannot gain spells (i.e. power) from their deity on those planes.

I just paged through A Paladin In Hell the other day, so good timing! It does mention the rule about weapons losing pluses as they travel each plane from their originating plane. And it does mention that the party must have at least one weapon of +5 or greater enchantment to survive, but nothing pertaining to a holy avenger sword in particular (unless I overlooked it).

[McDeath]

Makes me wonder how a Paladin in hell could function then if no powers, no sword. That pic would in the old books of the paladin in hell would be just a fighter more or less. Maybe I'm overlooking what works and what doesn't. I'm sure many sandboxes based on that picture had the sword working just fine. Someone pointed out to me there is even a +7 holy avenger out there in the early editions.

Well, if I went by an error in Egg of the Phoenix then there is a +21 sword in there (clearly a typo).

[Halaster Blackcloak]

But remember, a standard +5 holy avenger would become a +3 weapon in Hell. So it could hit just about anything dwelling there. That's why the Paladin In Hell adventure stipulates the party needs at least one +5 weapon to survive.

[McDeath]

True. Speaking of forged locations would you rules equipment forged in say hell has an evil taint? Would that of the celestial heavens have a holy taint.

I had a gaming world that had a mechanism of evil and good aura radiation on a world. The opposing alignment suffered gradually increasing penalties the closer to the radia of the source while the good defenders gained greater bonuses. Naturally there was a lot of neutal territory and even dead magic.

I came up eith that before i realized. FR had dead magic and drow radiation. It was also before i realized various strategy war games had a similar divine/infernal concept. It was extra tracking though and i even modified xp values based on difficulty of the battles (only fair tbh).

That was an era where some of my school chums had different ideas and demon invasions were popular.

Then way later Diablo crpg er mouse clicker tester came out. Seems it didn't matter where what was forged in that universe. And that makes me ponder, does say Palladium, White Wolf, and other RPGs have a similar mechanic on forged locations and planar interference?

[Halaster Blackcloak]

McDeath wrote:

True. Speaking of forged locations would you rules equipment forged in say hell has an evil taint? Would that of the celestial heavens have a holy taint.

Oh, definitely! I've always loved the idea of weapons or items with good or evil taint on them. It makes sense to me. I've had a few such weapons in my games over the years. They really add some enjoyment to the game.

I had a gaming world that had a mechanism of evil and good aura radiation on a world. The opposing alignment suffered gradually increasing penalties the closer to the radia of the source while the good defenders gained greater bonuses. Naturally there was a lot of neutal territory and even dead magic.

Hmmm. I'm thinking of some cool ways to use that idea in my campaign!

I've had areas that are focuses of evil, where it's harder to turn undead and where undead are more powerful due to the evil aura and things like that. But never such a large area. I may have to borrow that idea!

I came up eith that before i realized. FR had dead magic and drow radiation. It was also before i realized various strategy war games had a similar divine/infernal concept. It was extra tracking though and i even modified xp values based on difficulty of the battles (only fair tbh).

Drow radiation is fun to deal with. I have some twists and quirks in my current campaign dealing with that.

That was an era where some of my school chums had different ideas and demon invasions were popular.

I do love infernal adventures. I use demons with wicked, absolute evil and intelligent tactics. They're always a major challenge - in some ways even harder than facing dragons.

Then way later Diablo crpg er mouse clicker tester came out. Seems it didn't matter where what was forged in that universe. And that makes me ponder, does say Palladium, White Wolf, and other RPGs have a similar mechanic on forged locations and planar interference?

I haven't read much of those game systems to be able to answer that. Mostly I've only ever played AD&D with Judges Guild and Mayfair material, Gamma World, Star Frontiers, Top Secret and Call of Cthulhu.

[McDeath]

The thread sort of changed on DF to weapons above +5. I guess the Encyclopendia Magica has a swords section where versions of Excalibur are there and one is a +10 Sword acting as a Holy Avenger. Some questioned if it was +20 vs Chaotic Evil then?

[Halaster Blackcloak]

That's just silly power inflation. A +10 weapon? That's beyonds artifact level. In my games, Excalibur was a +6 holy avenger (to differentiate it above the average holy avenger swords), and that was the most pluses any weapon ever got. +20? That sounds like 3E-5E crap.

[McDeath]

Egg of the phoenix had a typo weapon on a guard of +21. One DM abided by that. That guard TPKd us badly.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

I can imagine!

[Beowulf]

I had forgotten that, too!