On 2nd thought - priest spheres in 2E suck!

[Halaster Blackcloak]

I was working on one of the rooms on Level 8 last night, and there's a cult of a certain demon lord in one of the rooms. I was detailing the high priest and his followers, and I came to realize something...

Priest spheres suck!

Now don't get me wrong. I love the idea of specialty priests. The generic cleric of 1E made no sense unless the overall complexity of your campaign was one where there was only one religion in the region (or world!). But spheres - the whole limitation to certain spheres - it makes it almost impossible to create effective priesthoods. An example...

There are a total of 5 spells for the All sphere. And one of those is a 5th level spell (atonement, not the most useful spell) and that one requires major access (with minor access you can only gain up to 3rd level spells).

The Astral sphere has just 2 spells, at 5th and 7th level so only those with major access can have a spell from that sphere.

The Charm sphere has just 10 spells and 6 of them require major access.

The Creation sphere? Forget it! Only 1 of the 7 spells in this sphere can be gained with minor access, and 7 spells is not a lot for major access.

The Guardian sphere? Again, 5 spells total, with 2 of them requiring major access.

Healing, perhaps the single most important sphere? Just 7 spells, with 4 of them requiring major access. The Sun sphere is similarly lacking.

It's bad enough that priests have a much smaller spell selection, and a much lower variety of truly useful spells, than wizards. The there's the duplication of spells so similar that it's almost redundant...charm, bless, chant, etc.

So I had this cult and I'm trying to figure out logical spheres to give them, and then I realized that a high level priest is almost forced to double up or even triple up on spells due to the lack of sphere access and the small number of spells per sphere. It sucks! It's either memorize the same spell 3 times or pick a spell that makes no sense (say priests of some underground cult having spells useful in the forest such as entangle, etc). Or a fire worshiping priest who has no fire related spells in most of his spell selections.

I'd forgotten how much I hate these restrictions. Awhile back, in my own campaigns, I did away with that major/minor access nonsense and just picked spells that were logical for a priest of a particular deity to have. Restricting spheres causes problems.

For example, say you're a priest of a cold using god or a being like Cryonax. For your 6th level spell selection (if you have major access to the conjuration/summoning sphere), you have the following choices:

Aerial servant (makes no sense - it'd be more proper for a priest of Yan-C-Bin)

Animal summoning (again, what would a priest of a cold elemental god be doing summoning animals? Plus, it only summons relatively weak normal animals - not very good for a 6th level spell)

Conjure animals (better than animal summoning, but really, this would be more suited to a nature priest, not a cold-worshiping priest)

Conjure fire elemental (this is a much better, more useful spell, but the priest would not cast something that summons a fire elemental if he worships Cryonax because Cryomax and Imix are enemies - polar opposites)

Weather summoning (at least that could be useful and appropriate)

So really, even having major access to that sphere sucks for that priest. You pretty much have to give priests major access to the majority of spheres to enable you to create a well rounded, suitable empowered priest.

What do the rest of you think?

[garhkal]

While some spheres may be gimped, I DO like using them...

[Beowulf]

In my campaign every priest is dedicated to a specific deity, and each one has different spells, powers and granted abilities. Overall I like the way 2E handles priests/clerics.

[garhkal]

Me too. Want a priest that's got great melee combat ability, decent granted powers; you might have to give up some spell spheres..

[McDeath]

Sounds good. I never dissected the multitude of spheres for specialty oriests.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Thing is, every time I create a specific priest villain for the game I realize just how unreasonably limiting the sphere approach is. Certain churches/religions are affected more or less than others. But re-read my example above of a priest of Cryonax. It really makes it difficult to give them a good selection of spells. Inevitably, in so many cases, I find myself needing to have the priest memorize multiples of several spells in order to even fill his spell roster (this spell memorized twice, this one memorized three times...), otherwise he either has to pick spells that make no sense for him to have, or he simply has to memorize only a portion of the number of spells allotted to him at a particular level. That's just not a good thing!

Granted, I do love the idea of different spells and powers for different priesthoods. Always have, always will. I think the problem is that the sphere concept was sort of glommed onto the original template of cleric spells, but the clerical spell list was never really designed to accommodate that sort of exclusivity. That's why you get the conundrum of priests like the Cryonax priest example I gave.

[Beowulf]

I think it makes sense though that priests of different deities would have different spells that reflect the nature of their deity. For instance a god/goddess of healing would probably have a lot of healing and curative spells and abilities and less offensive spells. A god/goddess of war on the other hand would likely have more combat related spells and less nature or healing spells.

In my campaigns priests/clerics also have granted powers related to the sphere of influence of their deity. An example is Laying on Hands as the Paladin ability for priests of the Goddess of Healing.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

It looks like most of us agree and like the idea of priests of different religions having different spells and powers. I'm not sure I've made my point clear enough perhaps then, about the problem I see with spheres. Again, I think the problem is that it makes it difficult to design good priesthoods going by the rules.

What I mean is this...

Priests belong to a religion, and priests of that religion are given either major access, minor access, or no access to various spell "spheres". Major access means they can (eventually) cast up to 7th level spells, while minor access allows them to cast only up to 3rd level spells of that sphere. They obviously cannot cast any spells belonging to spheres they have no access to.

As an example, a priest of a god of war/combat might gain major access to the combat, guardian, and protection spheres, minor access to healing and divination. But here's the problem...

There are only 8 combat spells in the entire PHB spell list!

And of those, only 3 of them are above 3rd level spells (flame strike - 5th, insect plague - 5th, holy word - 7th). He has to wait until 9th level to even gain access to spells above 3rd level that belong to his most major sphere of access. And what are his other combat spells, which he has access to between 1st and 8th level? Magical stone (1st level). A pretty wimpy spell doing only 1d4 damage (less than a knife). Shillelagh (2nd level)- 2d4 damage, 1d4 against larger opponents. Would do better off just using a knife. Chant (2nd level) - useful, but also wasteful. It takes the priest entirely out of combat or spell casting for the duration of the spell. If interrupted, the spell ends. Spiritual hammer (2nd level) - aside from it's awesome range, it only does the same damage as a normal war hammer in melee, until the priest hits 6th level, where it gains a whopping +1 to damage. Prayer (3rd level) - pretty much redundant with chant, with the exception that the priest can do other things during the effect of the spell.

Then he has to wait (from 5th level) until 9th level to even gain any new combat spells!

Then he gets flame strike, which is pretty sweet except for the area of effect being a tad small. Pretty much can only target one person, possibly 2. He also gets insect plague, which is pretty cool.

Then he has to go all the way from 9th level to 14th level to gain his 7th level combat spell - holy word.

That's it. 8 spells total in his most major sphere, with 5 of them being 3rd level or lower and not very impressive.

But wait...what about the guardian and protection spheres? Well, he gets to pick from a total of 5 spells. Five. And 3 of those are 3rd level or lower, with the major ones (blade barrier and symbol being reached only at 12th and 14th level, respectively). And here our priest of a god of combat gains 20 spells of the protection sphere - more than twice as many as his most major sphere - combat. Makes no sense. And even here, 12 of them are 3rd level or lower, with only 4 being 5th or 6th level (no 7th level spells).

With minor access to healing he gets a total of 2 spells ever - cure light wounds and slow poison. So much for this cleric being a healing machine!

Minor access to divination gives him 11 spells to choose from - all 3rd level or lower.

So ultimately he has access to 46 spells. Problem is, 33 of them are 3rd level or lower - 72% of them! He only gains 9 new spells between 5th level and 14th level. At 9th level (which in 1E is "name level", where you are SOMEBODY!), he has the ability to memorize 14 spells - but only 3 are above 3rd level. I think that's pathetic.

He's pretty wimpy for a priest of combat. Now, he wasn't the best example of the other point I was making, which is that certain priesthoods, given their access to particular spheres, simply cannot even fill their spell roster without memorizing the same spell multiple times at several spell levels.

For example, I had to give priests of a certain fire deity major access to 7 spheres - All, Abjuration, Alteration, Combat, Elemental, Evocation, Summoning - and minor access to 4 more - Divination, Healing, Protection, Weather, in order to make them work. That's 11 of the 16 spheres. Even then, I had to double up (and sometimes triple!) a particular spell just to fill his roster for any given level (even when using spells outside of the PHB!):

4th: Abjure, control temperature, divination, fire aura, (see Complete Wizard's Handbook), lower water (x2) produce fire (x2), protection from good, spell immunity

3rd: Bestow curse, continual light, cause blindness or deafness, dispel magic (x2), flame walk (x2), glyph of warding, prayer, pyrotechnics

2nd: Chant, fire trap, flame blade, heat metal (x3), produce flame, resist fire/resist cold (x2), silence 15' r.

1st: Combine, detect magic, destroy water (x2), detect good, endure cold (x2), faerie fire, light, protection from good

There either were no other spells he had access to, or the ones he might have access to did not really make sense given his religion, despite having access. So that's a huge problem for me. I hope I'm getting my point across - I know this post was a bit long winded!

I've done away with priest spheres altogether. To me they're just too much of a hassle and too restrictive. I just designate spells that make sense for each priesthood to have and don't bother with major or minor access or spheres available.

I think the change they made in 2E that allows specialty wizards was a helpful idea (except that necromancers got screwed a bit), but I think the priests spheres was a bad idea overall and poorly designed. It doesn't really work well in my eyes.

[Beowulf]

True, but it's not a violation of the rules for priests to have spell-like granted powers. Those can emulate actual spells or be effects/abilities invented by the DM from whole cloth.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

True, and I think assigning granted powers works far better in the pursuit of designing specialized priests than sphere access selection/restriction does. I'm just coming to find that using sphere restrictions either means having priests who are lacking in spells or who must duplicate multiple spells, or having to give them access to so many spheres that there's no point in having the major/minor access rules in the first place.

And using the sphere rules often leads to strange issues. Let's take a priest of an elemental fire being, like Imix for example. He can cast conjure fire elemental (as it is an elemental sphere spell), but not flame strike, which is a combat spell. Unless you give him major access to the combat sphere. But why should I have to give him major access to the combat sphere in order to give him a spell he would logically get to use given his religion?

I think it's easier to just customize the priesthood rather than worry about minor and major access to spheres. It's become a very tedious part of the creation process I've come to hate.

[garhkal]

As an example, a priest of a god of war/combat might gain major access to the combat, guardian, and protection spheres, minor access to healing and divination. But here's the problem...

There are only 8 combat spells in the entire PHB spell list!

True, even if you incorporate the spells from Spells and Magic as well as the Tome of Magic, you only add 4 more spells in. BUT you're looking at it somewhat, shallow.. THAT ONE spell group doesn't just define what his god is.. Its the gamut.

And of those, only 3 of them are above 3rd level spells (flame strike - 5th, insect plague - 5th, holy word - 7th). He has to wait until 9th level to even gain access to spells above 3rd level that belong to his most major sphere of access. And what are his other combat spells, which he has access to between 1st and 8th level? Magical stone (1st level). A pretty wimpy spell doing only 1d4 damage (less than a knife). Shillelagh (2nd level)- 2d4 damage, 1d4 against larger opponents. Would do better off just using a knife. Chant (2nd level) - useful, but also wasteful. It takes the priest entirely out of combat or spell casting for the duration of the spell. If interrupted, the spell ends. Spiritual hammer (2nd level) - aside from it's awesome range, it only does the same damage as a normal war hammer in melee, until the priest hits 6th level, where it gains a whopping +1 to damage. Rolling Eyes Prayer (3rd level) - pretty much redundant with chant, with the exception that the priest can do other things during the effect of the spell.

First, magical stone lets you make MORE than one stone to throw. EACH Deals d4 damage, or 2d4 vs undead. GREAT WAY to damage undead at low level, if you don't have magical weaponry.
Chant, yea it may take you out, but if you have sanctuary up, you can CAST IT and not worry about getting attacked. That +1 to hit, damage AND SAVES on your side, WHILE IMPOSING A -1 penalty on all 3, PLUS having it stack when you have a prayer going too, DOES ADD UP. Add in the spells and magic spell, RECITATION to the mix, and now those bonuses on your side are +4 to hit/damage/saves, and ENEMIES are at -4/-4/-4... That is rather big.

Let's look at one of my recent battles.. PC's had 11-12 thac0s, some even lower than that. ENEMY OGRES had ac -3 (leader), -2 (shaman), 2 (lt) and 4 (the rest). So the party needed a 15 to strike the leader for the bulk of them, 10 for the top 2 fighters.
NOW add in a Prot from good, AND A PRAYER going, and suddenly they are needing 18 to hit (13 for those top two fighters)..

But wait...what about the guardian and protection spheres? Well, he gets to pick from a total of 5 spells. Five. And 3 of those are 3rd level or lower, with the major ones (blade barrier and symbol being reached only at 12th and 14th level, respectively). And here our priest of a god of combat gains 20 spells of the protection sphere - more than twice as many as his most major sphere - combat. Makes no sense. And even here, 12 of them are 3rd level or lower, with only 4 being 5th or 6th level (no 7th level spells).

OK, so lets add in guardian. Yea base PHB gives light, silence, wvern watch, cont light and glyph of warding for L1-3, then adds in abjure, dispel evil, blade barrier, forbbidance and symbol for L4-7.
Add in the other two books, and you are adding in 3 more spells in the lower level, and 2 more for the higher level.
Protection does the same.

So your hypothetical cleric, now has over a dozen spells at low level to pick from, and at least half a dozen for the upper levels.. FROM JUST 3 spheres..

With minor access to healing he gets a total of 2 spells ever - cure light wounds and slow poison. So much for this cleric being a healing machine! Wink

IF HE is just MINOR access, he's NOT SUPPOSED TO be a healing machine.. Would you expect a minor league baseball player, to out pitch a MLB star? NO.
So why do you think a priest of a god, who's got minor access to healing, would even come CLOSE TO equalling what a priest of a god of healing has?? He's not supposed to. HENCE WHY HE has MINOR access to it.
OH, and adding in those 2 other books, adds in a third spell (cure moderate wounds), plus you forgot about hold poison, cure blindness/deafness and disease...

So ultimately he has access to 46 spells. Problem is, 33 of them are 3rd level or lower - 72% of them! He only gains 9 new spells between 5th level and 14th level. At 9th level (which in 1E is "name level", where you are SOMEBODY!), he has the ability to memorize 14 spells - but only 3 are above 3rd level. I think that's pathetic.

Maybe the problem is you are only looking at it FROM GIVING HIM access to 5 total spheres of access.. Try 8. 4 major, 4 minor.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Garhkal wrote:

True, even if you incorporate the spells from Spells and Magic as well as the Tome of Magic, you only add 4 more spells in. BUT you're looking at it somewhat, shallow.. THAT ONE spell group doesn't just define what his god is.. Its the gamut.

True, but what I'm saying is that in many cases (not all), using both the rules for spheres and major/minor access have made it difficult for me to design a priest with a decent complement of spells. Like that priest of Imix. I had to duplicate a lot of spells because even having major access to 7 spheres and minor access to 4 spheres, there are just not enough spells that make sense for him to have. Just awkward choices where I look at it and say "How could I possibly justify this priest of Imix having this particular spell?".

First, magical stone lets you make MORE than one stone to throw. EACH Deals d4 damage, or 2d4 vs undead. GREAT WAY to damage undead at low level, if you don't have magical weaponry.

I agree, it's a useful spell. The range, I think, is its most valuable aspect (30 yards). But again, he must roll to hit anyway. So if he uses all 3 stones in 1 rd, that means on average just 6 hp damage (12 vs. undead). So against undead it's pretty cool, but for other foes it's just not very tough. Granted, it's a 1st level spell, I get that. My point is that his combat spells pretty much do the same damage as simply using a knife or a staff or a hammer. Not all that impressive for a cleric of combat.

Chant, yea it may take you out, but if you have sanctuary up, you can CAST IT and not worry about getting attacked. That +1 to hit, damage AND SAVES on your side, WHILE IMPOSING A -1 penalty on all 3, PLUS having it stack when you have a prayer going too, DOES ADD UP. Add in the spells and magic spell, RECITATION to the mix, and now those bonuses on your side are +4 to hit/damage/saves, and ENEMIES are at -4/-4/-4... That is rather big.

I'm not saying the spell(s) is (are) useless. They have their place. I'm simply saying that this priest of combat doesn't get many effective spells, especially in his major sphere combat. Compare his combat spells (shillelagh, magical stone to fireball or lighting bolt for wizards.

Let's look at one of my recent battles.. PC's had 11-12 thac0s, some even lower than that. ENEMY OGRES had ac -3 (leader), -2 (shaman), 2 (lt) and 4 (the rest). So the party needed a 15 to strike the leader for the bulk of them, 10 for the top 2 fighters.
NOW add in a Prot from good, AND A PRAYER going, and suddenly they are needing 18 to hit (13 for those top two fighters)..

I agree, it helps, definitely! Especially when, as you say, you stack prayer with chant and things like that. I'm simply saying - the priest of combat only ever gets 8 spells of the combat sphere, and he doesn't even get 3 of them until reaching much higher levels (10th-14th). His lower level combat spells are far from impressive considering he has to roll to hit AND they only do minor damage similar to a knife.

OK, so lets add in guardian. Yea base PHB gives light, silence, wvern watch, cont light and glyph of warding for L1-3, then adds in abjure, dispel evil, blade barrier, forbbidance and symbol for L4-7.
Add in the other two books, and you are adding in 3 more spells in the lower level, and 2 more for the higher level.
Protection does the same.

So your hypothetical cleric, now has over a dozen spells at low level to pick from, and at least half a dozen for the upper levels.. FROM JUST 3 spheres..

Again, for a priest of combat to truly be a combat machine, you not only have to use books beyond the PHB (and even then most of the ones in Tome of Magic and some other books suck), but even then he doesn't get many combat spells. And most of them he gets only at high levels, whereas his low level spells are pretty wimpy. A spiritual hammer doing the same damage as a regular war hammer? What's the point of casting it?

IF HE is just MINOR access, he's NOT SUPPOSED TO be a healing machine.. Would you expect a minor league baseball player, to out pitch a MLB star? NO.
So why do you think a priest of a god, who's got minor access to healing, would even come CLOSE TO equalling what a priest of a god of healing has?? He's not supposed to. HENCE WHY HE has MINOR access to it.

I think you misunderstood me. I'm not complaining that he's not a healing machine, I meant that at least ir prevents him from being looked at as a heal-bot. I should have explained myself better on that one.

Maybe the problem is you are only looking at it FROM GIVING HIM access to 5 total spheres of access.. Try 8. 4 major, 4 minor.

Again, that priest of Imix (Prince of Elemental Fire) got 7 major spheres and 4 minor ones and yet I still had trouble making a spell list that was both sensible/logical and useful. Just not enough spells of each sphere.

I'm just saying I find it easier to forgo the spheres and major/minor access thing (the major/minor access aspect being the more troublesome of the two related issues) and simply make spell lists for each priesthood where they make sense.

I do miss the days when druids had their own spell list, illusionists did as well, etc.

[garhkal]

Halster wrote:

True, but what I'm saying is that in many cases (not all), using both the rules for spheres and major/minor access have made it difficult for me to design a priest with a decent complement of spells. Like that priest of Imix. I had to duplicate a lot of spells because even having major access to 7 spheres and minor access to 4 spheres, there are just not enough spells that make sense for him to have. Just awkward choices where I look at it and say "How could I possibly justify this priest of Imix having this particular spell?".

Well let's take a look at two of my combat gods i've wrote up. First off we have Laranni, the Paladin priestess.. Shield maiden and lady of honor.
She has major access to War, Law, ALL, Sun, Guardian and Combat.
Just at 4th level, that gives her priests, 12 spells to select through. BUT HER might is not just in her spell powers, it in the OTHER things
For one, her priests can cast a Prot from normal missiles on themselves, once a day from 3rd level onward. They can use a special version of Champion's strength at 9th level, that is cast as if by a priest 4 levels higher than they are. They can also specialize in a weapon as if they were a warrior.

So as she's a combat god, her priests gain BETTER melee capacity, She gives up a little Spell power for that though.

Then we look at Sarajin, the barbarian god of strength, combat (battle lust). He gains Warrior HP, can't wear shields or Non metallic armor. BUT they gain 1 additional weapon slot, for a free specialty in axe, spear, bow or broad sword.
HIS spell spheres at major, are combat, guardian, travelers, Elemental -all, and Sun. That only gives him 11 spells at 4th level though, but still, its NOT as bad as you make it sound.

I agree, it's a useful spell. The range, I think, is its most valuable aspect (30 yards). But again, he must roll to hit anyway. So if he uses all 3 stones in 1 rd, that means on average just 6 hp damage (12 vs. undead). So against undead it's pretty cool, but for other foes it's just not very tough. Granted, it's a 1st level spell, I get that. My point is that his combat spells pretty much do the same damage as simply using a knife or a staff or a hammer. Not all that impressive for a cleric of combat.

DO you expect them to be as potent as an Invoker, starting out??

I'm not saying the spell(s) is (are) useless. They have their place. I'm simply saying that this priest of combat doesn't get many effective spells, especially in his major sphere combat. Compare his combat spells (shillelagh, magical stone to fireball or lighting bolt for wizards.

That is the issue, i feel YOU SEE combat priests, as having to be DIRECTLY 'explosive' as a battle mage is.. BUT THEY ARE NOT.

Again, for a priest of combat to truly be a combat machine, you not only have to use books beyond the PHB (and even then most of the ones in Tome of Magic and some other books suck), but even then he doesn't get many combat spells. And most of them he gets only at high levels, whereas his low level spells are pretty wimpy. A spiritual hammer doing the same damage as a regular war hammer? What's the point of casting it?

A) it allows you to strike at range. Kind of hard to hit someone, if you can't get to them.
B) IT strikes from ANY DIRECTION, so the priest can position it for a REAR attack
and C) IT STRIKES foes needing magic to hit. So for a 3rd level priest, that's a big boon.

Again, that priest of Imix (Prince of Elemental Fire) got 7 major spheres and 4 minor ones and yet I still had trouble making a spell list that was both sensible/logical and useful. Just not enough spells of each sphere.

How many spells do you feel they should have? 20+ at each level?

[Halaster Blackcloak]

My example of the combat priest doesn't really capture the issue well and I have no idea why I used that for my example. I should have simply used the priests of Imix as my example. So I'll re-focus on that one. I gave them major access to 7 spheres and minor access to 4 spheres. Originally it was just 4 major and 3 minor, but I had to keep "upping" the number of allowed spheres to even have a chance at making a sensible, logical priest of Imix. Here's his spheres of access and spell list:
_____________________

Major access: All, Abjuration, Alteration, Combat, Elemental, Evocation, Summoning

Minor Access: Divination, Healing, Protection, Weather

7th: Firestorm, symbol

6th: Conjure fire elemental, fire seeds, forbiddance, part water

5th: Commune, dispel good, flame strike, elemental forbiddance (see Tome of Magic), wall of fire

4th: Abjure, control temperature, divination, lower water (x2), produce fire (x2), protection from good, reflecting pool (uses natural fire source, not water) spell immunity

3rd: Bestow curse, continual light, cause blindness or deafness, dispel magic (x2), flame walk (x2), glyph of warding, prayer, pyrotechnics

2nd: Chant, fire trap, flame blade, heat metal (x3), produce flame, resist fire/resist cold (x2), silence 15' r.

1st: Combine, detect magic, destroy water (x2), detect good, endure cold (x2), faerie fire, light, protection from good,
_____________________

Look at the number of spells I had to have him memorize twice or even thrice, in order to fill his spell list.

Remember, this is a priesthood of a Neutral Evil Elemental Prince of Fire. All about fire and burning and destruction, things that rage out of control.

As my example, what other 2nd level spell would make sense for him to have, in order to not have to memorize heat metal 3 times and resist fire/cold 2 times? The only other 2nd level spells that are available to him (i.e. belong to a sphere to which he has access) are:

Augury - I don't see much use for this spell considering these are priests meant to be enemies of the PCs. Just doesn't seem like they'd have a need for it.

Barkskin - I suppose this would be useful, though it seems more like a nature or druid spell to me. Perhaps for a priest of Ogremoch (Elemental Prince of Earth) it would make more sense to me.

Detect charm - Really, this is the sort of spell designed for PC use, not so much for villains to use. If that makes sense in game terms.

Dust devil - Being a spell of elemental air, it would not make sense for a priest of Imix (Prince of Fire) to use a spell more logically being used by a priest of Yan-C-Bin (Prince of Air), especially considering the "great enmity" between the Elemental Princes of Evil

Find traps - Again, in game terms, this is intended mainly as a PC spell. In other words, it's in the game to help PCs navigate through the perils of dungeons they are exploring. I see no reason why an evil NPC would have use for this in their own lair(s).

Know alignment - Again, this to me is a spell designed or intended for PCs to use. The PCs need to determine alignment at times. I don't see these priests having much use for it.

Slow poison - Sure, they could use it, but why would this be a spell they memorize? What does slowing poison have to do with worship of fire and destruction? Again, it seems to be a PC-intended spell.

Withdraw - Useless for this priesthood. All they can do while under the withdraw spell is cast divination spells or healing spells. So really, this priest has no spells he can cast while withdrawn, except perhaps commune. And why would he need to do that during combat with PCs? In fact, I find this spell ridiculously stupid and poorly written. You can only cast healing spells on other characters? Why? Stupid. And the spell sucks because the caster can still be hit by others while withdrawn and loses his DEX and/or shield bonus, which negates the usefulness of the spell. Really, I've never seen it used in a useful manner. It makes it more likely the priest gets hit, not less likely.

Wyvern watch - Again, why would they need it in their own lair? And it only lasts for 8 hrs, so it would need to be cast 3 times a day to cover the protected area around the clock. Again, to me this spell is intended more for PCs to use to protect them while sleeping for the night.

So what choice but to double and triple certain spells?

[garhkal]

Strange, i put into the ADND core rules program "all, Elemental-all, Combat and Summoning" as just 4 spheres of access, and i see the following spells for that priest.
Animate rock
Chariot of Sustarre
Conjure air/earth or water elemental
Creeping doom
Dismiss air/earth/water elemental
Earthquake
Exactation
Fire quench/storm
Gate
Holy word
Succor
Summon
Transmute metal to wood
Tsunami
Wind walk..

That's quite a lot more than just the two you have listed.

Looking at his L2 list, we get augury, barkskin, chill/heat metal, cause/cure moderate wounds, detect charm, dust devil, draw upon holy might, fire trap, find trap, flame blade, know alignment/obscure alignment, produce fire, obscurement, resist fire/cold, resist acid/corrosion, sanctify, slow poison, speak with animals, soften earth and stone, spiritual hammer, watery fist, withdrawl. That's quite a Good list of spells to select from...

As far as your comments on withdraw, its meant for the priest to GET HIMSELF HEALED UP..

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Not sure if you're addressing the problem with the priests of Imix or the combat priest. In any case, I should have used the priest of Imix as a better example of what I'm saying, so I assume you're talking about the priests of Imix now.

Strange, i put into the ADND core rules program "all, Elemental-all, Combat and Summoning" as just 4 spheres of access, and i see the following spells for that priest.

Here's the problem with them...

Animate rock

Again, this spell is a 7th level spell so he only gains access at very high levels (14th +). And as a priest of Imix, he would worship fire, not earth/rock. That spell would be better suited for a priest of Ogremoch (Elemental Prince of Earth)

Chariot of Sustarre

Again, he doesn't gain this until 14th level, though that would be a good once for them, once they reach that level.

Conjure air/earth or water elemental

He's an elemental priest of fire, so he would be opposed to using an elemental power more appropriate to a rival Prince of Elemental Evil.

Creeping doom

Animal summoning, not really suited for a priest of fire.

Dismiss air/earth/water elemental

Where is this from? It's not the reverse of any of the spells in the PHB. What level is it? Yes, that one would be useful but again...it's probably a higher level spell, leaving low to mid level priests stuck with duplicate spells.

Earthquake

Again, more appropriate for a priest of Ogremoch, not Imix.

Exactation

Possibly useful, but once again not until he reaches 14th level.

Fire quench/storm

And yet again, not until 7th level. Besides that, it's pretty weak for a 7th level spell, doing only 2d8 +1 pt./level.

Gate
Holy word

Again, both 7th level spells. Until he hits 14th level, the priest of Imix is a real pain in the ass to design. Gate must also be used with caution - it's rarely used except in extremely dire situations since it: 1) Ages the user 5 years, 2) requires a system shock to survive the aging, and 3) it's not guaranteed that the thing coming through the gate will assist the caster. And holy word would seem to have limited use for a priest of a deity of fire.

Succor

It's basically an overpowered teleport spell, of limited use for facing off against PCs (except perhaps in retreat). And again, it's a 7th level spell.

Summon

Summon __________ ?

Transmute metal to wood

Again, why would an elemental priest of fire be transmuting metal to wood? Seems a bit off his specialty of fire.

Tsunami

Isn't that from the Tome of Magic I think? But again it's a 7th level spell and deals with water - the exact opposite of a priest of Imix/fire.

Wind walk..

Same thing here - 7th level spell, doesn't get it until 14th level, is of an opposed element (air) to his portfolio (fire).

That's quite a lot more than just the two you have listed.

But all 7th level spells, so between 1st level and 13th level, it's still the same problem. Not enough logical spells for him to have without duplicating some. Also, most of those are opposed to his elemental mastery (fire). I can't see Imix - who is an Elemental Prince of Fire - granting powers of air or water to his priests.

Looking at his L2 list, we get augury, barkskin, chill/heat metal, cause/cure moderate wounds, detect charm, dust devil, draw upon holy might, fire trap, find trap, flame blade, know alignment/obscure alignment, produce fire, obscurement, resist fire/cold, resist acid/corrosion, sanctify, slow poison, speak with animals, soften earth and stone, spiritual hammer, watery fist, withdrawl. That's quite a Good list of spells to select from...

Same issues here - most of those don't make a lot of sense for a priesthood of fire to have. Dust devil is an elemental air spell, for example, opposed to being a fire spell. Etc, etc.

As far as your comments on withdraw, its meant for the priest to GET HIMSELF HEALED UP..

Right, which makes it suck all the more so. He's open to attack, and loses shield/dexterity bonus while casting it, making it more likely he's attacked while casting it. So it takes him out of combat for one round of external time, he heals himself, but most of that healing is negated by the likelihood of being hit while he's casting those spells. If it made him immune to attack, undetectable, etc, then the spell might be worth having.

[garhkal]

You only listed two spells FOR seventh level, so i tried showing there was a lot more.

AND yes dismiss is supposedly the opposite of summon elemental.