Bored
Moderators: Thorn Blackstone, Halaster Blackcloak
Nice.
When I get bored, I draw maps on graph paper. Lately I've been working on maps with 3-dimensional aspects to them -- I don't mean drawn in any of those tilted maps that came along in 2E, I just mean maps with stairs, overpasses, underpasses, etc., without leaving the dungeon level. Platforms. Elevated sections of rooms. Cascades of water through multiple holding tanks. My imagine is running dry, though, so I've been looking for similar maps online.
...haven't found any, though.
When I get bored, I draw maps on graph paper. Lately I've been working on maps with 3-dimensional aspects to them -- I don't mean drawn in any of those tilted maps that came along in 2E, I just mean maps with stairs, overpasses, underpasses, etc., without leaving the dungeon level. Platforms. Elevated sections of rooms. Cascades of water through multiple holding tanks. My imagine is running dry, though, so I've been looking for similar maps online.
...haven't found any, though.
Doirche, sometimes I wonder if you are reading my mind. 
Let me explain: I was trying, during this week-end, making a map much like the one you've just posted.
The reason requires some explanation.
I have a diorama artist, here in Milan (Italy) who is making me dioramas for a life-long project for my AD&D campaign.
The artist is called Manorhouse. You can get one one their galleries here:
http://www.manorhouse.cc/italiano/gall- ... antasy.asp
Anyway, he already made me one diorama, this one (it's 120cm x 80cm):
http://www.mindstalkers.it/team/definitivo-3.jpg
http://www.mindstalkers.it/team/definitivo-5.jpg
http://www.mindstalkers.it/team/definitivo-6.jpg
http://www.mindstalkers.it/team/definitivo-9.jpg
http://www.mindstalkers.it/team/definitivo-2+fig.jpg
http://www.mindstalkers.it/team/definitivo-5+fig.jpg
http://www.mindstalkers.it/team/definitivo-6+fig.jpg
He's currently making another one, to be added besides this last one.
The other one is a Cemetery with Church, and should be a little bigger (160 x 80).
What I was planning, next, was to create the dungeons below (both under the Cemetery/Church and under the ruined Castle).
I was looking, hence, for a possible "crypt" map.
With also explanations of the rooms, possible nice "art" things and rooms to put inside, etc.
In a way, it could be nice to have a level of RoU (a small one, like indeed the Crypt), also made "in flesh".
What do you think ?
Let me explain: I was trying, during this week-end, making a map much like the one you've just posted.
The reason requires some explanation.
I have a diorama artist, here in Milan (Italy) who is making me dioramas for a life-long project for my AD&D campaign.
The artist is called Manorhouse. You can get one one their galleries here:
http://www.manorhouse.cc/italiano/gall- ... antasy.asp
Anyway, he already made me one diorama, this one (it's 120cm x 80cm):
http://www.mindstalkers.it/team/definitivo-3.jpg
http://www.mindstalkers.it/team/definitivo-5.jpg
http://www.mindstalkers.it/team/definitivo-6.jpg
http://www.mindstalkers.it/team/definitivo-9.jpg
http://www.mindstalkers.it/team/definitivo-2+fig.jpg
http://www.mindstalkers.it/team/definitivo-5+fig.jpg
http://www.mindstalkers.it/team/definitivo-6+fig.jpg
He's currently making another one, to be added besides this last one.
The other one is a Cemetery with Church, and should be a little bigger (160 x 80).
What I was planning, next, was to create the dungeons below (both under the Cemetery/Church and under the ruined Castle).
I was looking, hence, for a possible "crypt" map.
With also explanations of the rooms, possible nice "art" things and rooms to put inside, etc.
In a way, it could be nice to have a level of RoU (a small one, like indeed the Crypt), also made "in flesh".
What do you think ?
"Survival is its own reward."
-
Doirche
First of all, I think those diorama's are AWESOME! 
Your artist is extremely talented and he should be proud of his work. Those things look like sets out of a fantasy movie.
Feel free to use the map I made if you would like. It would be really cool to see a dungeon turned into a 3-D model. I can also help you make a custom floorplan for a dungeon / crypt that is specific for this project as well.
Let me know
Your artist is extremely talented and he should be proud of his work. Those things look like sets out of a fantasy movie.
Feel free to use the map I made if you would like. It would be really cool to see a dungeon turned into a 3-D model. I can also help you make a custom floorplan for a dungeon / crypt that is specific for this project as well.
Let me know
Glad you like it Doirche.
Indeed I find the guy very talented too.
For the project I am planning, I hesitated between Gamefusion and him.
Gamefusion was waaaay cheaper, but quality (while overall "ok") wasn't nowhere as good as his.
Considering the guy lived next door, I decided to make an (economic) sacrifice and go to the Italian shop.
I'll see the artist again this thursday. We'll be speaking then about the "subterraneans" levels.
At least, "theory-wise".
Like you have seen, he already did some.
But he is interested in creating new resin kits for the setting, and since he doesn't play RPG, he is asking me basically what should be done / put in a subterranean setting.
I.e: what would a RPGer would like to see there.
Now, making a subterranean diorama isn't easy as it looks.
It isn't only about representing/building it.
You have also "playability" and "space" to take into account.
And modularity too.
Let me explain:
As of now, the artist is usually making his corridors 3 inches wide (7,5cm), due to the fact that it's best for him that his dioramas can let players play also with 40mm minis. (the last pictures of the Ruined Castle show indeed the 40mm minis)
For RPG purpose, the scale should be 25-28mm. So a 5cm (2 inches) wide corridor could be best.
A 1 inch wide (2,5cm) corridor starts to be out of the question, however, due to the fact that it would be VERY difficult for someone to move and grab a mini there (remember that you have walls that get usually 3 inches high at the minimum).
Also, for similar reasons, the pannels of every diorama are of 40x40cm measurement.
And usually, some work is made to each side of the pannel to make them fit to any other pannel in a smooth manner (most of the time).
For subterraneans levels, this means that usually the sides of each 40x40 pannel are made of corridors/half-rooms, even smaller than the 7,5cm (usually 5cm), so that if you add another pannel, other bigger rooms/corridors can be formed that way.
Also, this means that if you play with only one single pannel, there is one wall missing (the far outside wall) thus you can reach for the mini more easily and play with it (this explains why the corridor doesn't have to be as large as before).
This settles up some explanations on how subterraneans pannels are built.
Thursday I'll try to convince the artist to make new kits about 5x5cm.
This is better for D&D, and better for "size" (a smaller scale means more rooms and corridors can fit inside).
Then, map-wise, you have to consider everything "pannel-wise".
And thus, trying to make more things "fit" than would be, generally.
Indeed, what you need to do and "think" is, when a map is written, use a transparent grid representing the different pannels, and try to move it in such a manner to make EACH 40x40 pannel interesting and not "wasted".
this is an example of me just putting a green grid on your map, without trying to make anything fit:
As you see, not the best cut, there is a lot of wasted space.
I'm sure the grid can be positionned better, but I put it there just to show you what "waste" of space can be seen.
So usually, i think the best is take an existing map, put the grid somewhere, and modify the map to make it more "fitting" to a diorama.
Then, there is the "wow" factor of a diorama.
A map like yours doesn't show what is INSIDE the rooms. For all I know, one could be made of metal, one other could be about a bridge over a chasm, etc.
All these things can be made easily in a diorama.
Anyway, besides "traps" (like concealed pits) and "secret doors", what should be "fitting" to be put in a subterranean diorama ?
(EDIT: as for modularity, I meant the fact that you can rotate additionnal 40x40 pannels and make them side to other 40x40 pannels to make a bigger dungeon. You could, with 6 pannels, create many different dungeons this way just by rotating the pannels)
Indeed I find the guy very talented too.
For the project I am planning, I hesitated between Gamefusion and him.
Gamefusion was waaaay cheaper, but quality (while overall "ok") wasn't nowhere as good as his.
Considering the guy lived next door, I decided to make an (economic) sacrifice and go to the Italian shop.
I'll see the artist again this thursday. We'll be speaking then about the "subterraneans" levels.
At least, "theory-wise".
Like you have seen, he already did some.
But he is interested in creating new resin kits for the setting, and since he doesn't play RPG, he is asking me basically what should be done / put in a subterranean setting.
I.e: what would a RPGer would like to see there.
Now, making a subterranean diorama isn't easy as it looks.
It isn't only about representing/building it.
You have also "playability" and "space" to take into account.
And modularity too.
Let me explain:
As of now, the artist is usually making his corridors 3 inches wide (7,5cm), due to the fact that it's best for him that his dioramas can let players play also with 40mm minis. (the last pictures of the Ruined Castle show indeed the 40mm minis)
For RPG purpose, the scale should be 25-28mm. So a 5cm (2 inches) wide corridor could be best.
A 1 inch wide (2,5cm) corridor starts to be out of the question, however, due to the fact that it would be VERY difficult for someone to move and grab a mini there (remember that you have walls that get usually 3 inches high at the minimum).
Also, for similar reasons, the pannels of every diorama are of 40x40cm measurement.
And usually, some work is made to each side of the pannel to make them fit to any other pannel in a smooth manner (most of the time).
For subterraneans levels, this means that usually the sides of each 40x40 pannel are made of corridors/half-rooms, even smaller than the 7,5cm (usually 5cm), so that if you add another pannel, other bigger rooms/corridors can be formed that way.
Also, this means that if you play with only one single pannel, there is one wall missing (the far outside wall) thus you can reach for the mini more easily and play with it (this explains why the corridor doesn't have to be as large as before).
This settles up some explanations on how subterraneans pannels are built.
Thursday I'll try to convince the artist to make new kits about 5x5cm.
This is better for D&D, and better for "size" (a smaller scale means more rooms and corridors can fit inside).
Then, map-wise, you have to consider everything "pannel-wise".
And thus, trying to make more things "fit" than would be, generally.
Indeed, what you need to do and "think" is, when a map is written, use a transparent grid representing the different pannels, and try to move it in such a manner to make EACH 40x40 pannel interesting and not "wasted".
this is an example of me just putting a green grid on your map, without trying to make anything fit:
As you see, not the best cut, there is a lot of wasted space.
I'm sure the grid can be positionned better, but I put it there just to show you what "waste" of space can be seen.
So usually, i think the best is take an existing map, put the grid somewhere, and modify the map to make it more "fitting" to a diorama.
Then, there is the "wow" factor of a diorama.
A map like yours doesn't show what is INSIDE the rooms. For all I know, one could be made of metal, one other could be about a bridge over a chasm, etc.
All these things can be made easily in a diorama.
Anyway, besides "traps" (like concealed pits) and "secret doors", what should be "fitting" to be put in a subterranean diorama ?
(EDIT: as for modularity, I meant the fact that you can rotate additionnal 40x40 pannels and make them side to other 40x40 pannels to make a bigger dungeon. You could, with 6 pannels, create many different dungeons this way just by rotating the pannels)
"Survival is its own reward."
-
Doirche
I see what you are getting at. Well I could create a map that incorporated 9 (3 X 3) or even 16 (4 X 4) green grids (panels). I could also line up the corridors so that each grid section can be placed somewhere else in the dungeon. Basically I would make a geomorph like the current dungeon tile sets produced by the 3rd and 4th Ed crowds, and the ones produced by TSR back in the early days of AD&D.
To answer your question about what can be placed inside the dungeon..... how about chains affixed to the walls with skeletons hanging in them? How about broken and rotten furniture? Barrels, crates, etc. You can also have grates (floor drains, etc.)... even maybe oak support beams that have fallen.... coffins (open?), altars, thurmaturgic circles, pentagrams, etc. on the floor. Cobwebs. Platforms with railings can be positioned along the walls with stairs leading to them. I can go on and on... hehe.
To answer your question about what can be placed inside the dungeon..... how about chains affixed to the walls with skeletons hanging in them? How about broken and rotten furniture? Barrels, crates, etc. You can also have grates (floor drains, etc.)... even maybe oak support beams that have fallen.... coffins (open?), altars, thurmaturgic circles, pentagrams, etc. on the floor. Cobwebs. Platforms with railings can be positioned along the walls with stairs leading to them. I can go on and on... hehe.
That's good.Doirche wrote:I see what you are getting at. Well I could create a map that incorporated 9 (3 X 3) or even 16 (4 X 4) green grids (panels).
I'll see what the artist will tell me thursday (because I still need to get his approval about what can be done and what can't be).
So i'll keep you updated.
What I mean is "it's a waste to make a map right now if I don't know yet the possible problems / rules that we'll have to follow in a dungeon creation, model-wise.
I'm no artist, so I need his opinion on the matter (maybe, for example, there are other reasons why 7,5cm is THE measurement to be kept, and if I don't know for sure what dimensions we can use, we can't draw any map).
Good.Doirche wrote:I could also line up the corridors so that each grid section can be placed somewhere else in the dungeon. Basically I would make a geomorph like the current dungeon tile sets produced by the 3rd and 4th Ed crowds, and the ones produced by TSR back in the early days of AD&D.
We don't need, however, something that fits perfectly.
A corridor can even finish in a dead-end due to another pannel not giving room for it, etc.
What I mean is "while we need to be careful, we don't need to sacrifice too much coolness factor for modularity". :-)
Good stuff ^^Doirche wrote:To answer your question about what can be placed inside the dungeon..... how about chains affixed to the walls with skeletons hanging in them? How about broken and rotten furniture? Barrels, crates, etc. You can also have grates (floor drains, etc.)... even maybe oak support beams that have fallen.... coffins (open?), altars, thurmaturgic circles, pentagrams, etc. on the floor. Cobwebs. Platforms with railings can be positioned along the walls with stairs leading to them. I can go on and on... hehe.
broken/rotten furniture isn't however something that would be done in resin. Chains wouldn't be either, like fallen oak beams. (this is more "added art", in wood)
Grates and the like: yes, I thought about it and it sounds to me too a perfect addition.
Pentagrams / Altars: sure, good stuff. A little bit specific.
Coffins: definitively.
Platforms with railings: that's a good/great idea. I and he loves having stuff also evolve vertically. I think this might make things more complicated, cost-wise, however (if a mini has to fit both under and over it, it can mean pretty high walls in ALL the dungeon, which add cost and weight to everything). I'll see what the artist will say about it. ^_^
"Survival is its own reward."
Just came back from a 4day vacation.
Got the artist.
He told me "ok" on everything.
So we can work on a 8 pannels dungeon map.
The final map will be 80x160 (cm) (so 2 pannels wide per 4 pannels length)
If you are up to it, Doirche, we can use this topic for brainstorming maps projects. :-)
Got the artist.
He told me "ok" on everything.
So we can work on a 8 pannels dungeon map.
The final map will be 80x160 (cm) (so 2 pannels wide per 4 pannels length)
If you are up to it, Doirche, we can use this topic for brainstorming maps projects. :-)
"Survival is its own reward."
Not to derail your guy's thread, but when it comes to diorama creation and use in play, where do you store them at? I've always wanted to create and run "diorama D&D", but storage space is at a minimum where I live. I've collected a ton of miniatures over the years, and those are hard enough to keep displayed/stored, much less the beautiful dioramas shown in those pics. Your artist truly is talented.
Tired of clone MMOs? So are we!
http://trialsofascension.com/
http://trialsofascension.com/
Ah well, this is a good question indeed.
I haven't that much space myself.
I'm trying to figure out some solutions (like puting them on show in a shop etc.).
As of now, I have only one, and it stays in the artist's lab.
When the second will be done, I'll probably have to retrieve both of them.
I hope to find a solution by then.
Some people, of course, do not have "space problems". Lucky ones.
I haven't that much space myself.
I'm trying to figure out some solutions (like puting them on show in a shop etc.).
As of now, I have only one, and it stays in the artist's lab.
When the second will be done, I'll probably have to retrieve both of them.
I hope to find a solution by then.
Some people, of course, do not have "space problems". Lucky ones.
"Survival is its own reward."
Ok, here is one of the last drafts of the dungeon map we're going to do.
A square is one-inch.
Walls are brown, librairies are orange, greyed areas (with stripes) represents tombs (but in the little room with a librairy, where it's 2 dissection tables for experiments), little black circles are statue.
Some walls are also thinner with violet/grey color (lines). That's because the artist has many kind of walls. Some of them are "classic dungeon stile" and 4mm depth, and the more ornamented ones are 1,5cm wide (the brown ones).
Often, you'll see that the brown walls aren't 1,5cm wide, but 3cm.
This is because each wall of 1,5cm has a back and a front. The front is ornamented, the back is not (it's just a flat vertical wall on the back), so you need double the width to show the walls in every room.
3 images here:
one is the overall map, the other 2 are with a bigger scale (upper part, and lower part).
Basically, I'm looking for ideas for:
- floors. We need different types of floor tiles that can look also "squarely"
- what to put in the rooms (especially the empty ones), and why not what are some of the rooms.
If you have any question, drop me a line. :-)
A square is one-inch.
Walls are brown, librairies are orange, greyed areas (with stripes) represents tombs (but in the little room with a librairy, where it's 2 dissection tables for experiments), little black circles are statue.
Some walls are also thinner with violet/grey color (lines). That's because the artist has many kind of walls. Some of them are "classic dungeon stile" and 4mm depth, and the more ornamented ones are 1,5cm wide (the brown ones).
Often, you'll see that the brown walls aren't 1,5cm wide, but 3cm.
This is because each wall of 1,5cm has a back and a front. The front is ornamented, the back is not (it's just a flat vertical wall on the back), so you need double the width to show the walls in every room.
3 images here:
one is the overall map, the other 2 are with a bigger scale (upper part, and lower part).
Basically, I'm looking for ideas for:
- floors. We need different types of floor tiles that can look also "squarely"
- what to put in the rooms (especially the empty ones), and why not what are some of the rooms.
If you have any question, drop me a line. :-)
"Survival is its own reward."