From 1E to 2E - weaker or simply more options?

[Halaster Blackcloak]

I was recently reading a debate about 2E being considered weaker than 1E, emasculated if you will (to steal the term I love to apply to 3E and beyond). One of the complaints I've heard concerns poison. In 1E, it was basically save or die most of the time. There were no paralysis poisons or sleep poisons. If you got poisoned, you took a shitload of damage and/or you died. And a lot of 1E fans like it that way.

But do the changes made to poison in 2E actually mean that 2E was "softer" on characters than 1E was? I'd argue no. The introduction of poisons that cause sleep, paralysis, weakness, etc simply expanded on the variety of ways a DM could challenge PCs.

If a party comes upon an enemy and that enemy kills them with poison, that's the end of the challenge. But if that same enemy poisons them with sleep poison or paralysis poison and then enslaves them, well...there's a whole new adventure waiting to be told! How do the PCs escape? How do they recover their magic items? How do they find their way home assuming they escape? What about all the monsters they have to face to gain freedom and reach home?

And debilitative poison rocks! Debilitate the characters while they're deep in the dungeon and watch the fun that ensues! Well, perhaps for the DM!

So I don't think the inclusion of poisons that do things other than kill make the game less lethal. It makes the game more interesting.

The other thing I saw discussed was the idea of evil clerics getting healing spells. In 1E, evil clerics got the reverse of all healing spells...cause serious wounds, harm, etc. In 2E, evil clerics got to do healing spells. Well doesn't that just make sense? How are evil gods going to have clerics around for any length of time if they have to keep dying because they can't cure their own wounds, diseases, etc, or be raised from the dead? Not exactly an encouraging job perk, you know?

So, what say you all?

[Mira]

I really hated 1E poisons always being save or die, I definitely prefer having poisons doing other things. I'd actually changed it long before 2E came out, it never made any sense to me that spider poison wouldn't paralyze instead since they would want to feast on the still living critter.

Level caps on spells were something I really did not like at all in 2E though. Same with AC caps. I saw no reason for either one. The death knight's 20 die fireball in 1E was something to be feared, changing it to a 10 die fireball made it nothing to worry about. (since the level of PCs facing such a monster would be quite high) Maybe it was just how powerful our groups became, but even the 20 die fireball wouldn't wipe them out, though it would severely injure them.

Still, with 1E and 2E base mechanics being the same, it's not difficult to pick and choose what you like from them, I'll bet that a lot of people have 1E/2E hybrid games for that very reason

Mira (Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it)

[Varl]

I think the variety of having poison types of varying strengths and effects is one of the things that makes AD&D great. Wouldn't it suck to know Manticore poison, scorpion poison, pixie sleep poison, manmade poisons, and medusa poison all had the same efficacy and effect?

[Jared Synn]

I'll throw my hat in by agreeing with everyone else. I feel the same way. Especially about damage caps. I'd love to hear Halaster rant about "emasculated wizards", because that's precisely what it did. I'd hate to be a strictly btb 2E wizard because spell caps really weakened them.

[Minstrel]

I'll second or third or fourth the idea that more variety in poison is better. I never liked save or die ones too much, not because I don't like save or die, but because I thought that very few poisons deserved to be so lethal that there is no time at all to cast neutralize poison.

[McDeath]

I actually found the poisons in 2nd edition to still be too limiting. I know somewhere I expanded the list greatly. Certaintly is you take a look at all the types of toxins in the real word and make a rule for them in 2nd ed you'll have a larger list. I also had a variety of onset times that'd take place. And some poisons didn't always take all the hp out at the end of the onset time but rather was divided per round/turn/etc. Since I used to play ultima back in the old days and other rpgs I certaintly had poisons that caused death, but it'd only take so many hp per round/turn/etc.

Sounds like we could use a poison project here at BIP eh?

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Sounds like a fun project McDeath! Want to run it for us?

[McDeath]

Lemme look through and sort the folders and I'll see. I'm pretty sure there was a module or two and pdf on poisons somewhere. I'll certaintly look at all the types of toxin types (neuro-, cyto-, etc). I even recall toxins from certain MM's that caused stoning, disintigration, etc. That certainly would be a spin on say a random snake that bite you and causes you to combust into flame from venom or frosts you like an ice cube as per the white widow from a Thunder Rift module.

[Algolei]

The more poison types, the better. Even if I run a 1E campaign, I use more than one poison type!

Spell level caps never mattered in any of my campaigns because mine were always low-level, but my old friend and DM did run one 20th-level and higher game. He hated spell level caps, so I still didn't encounter them.

And I never did play that evil clerics couldn't cast healing spells, either. Is that really the official 1E rule? Guess I missed that rule, too!