Strength based range vs set ranges

[adidamps2]

having played AD&D and other various games, I noticed that D&D non-mechanical weapons, have set weapons ranges, so that no matter what your strength is, be it 10 or 20, you can both equally throw a rock, bola, spear, or fire a bow the same distance. however I think we all know/realize thats false, and although I realize that throwing an object a certain distance may have a little more to do with strength alone, it does for the most part play the (IMO) biggest role in an objects flight to it's destination. so after saying all of this, I was just wondering do any of you use any sort of game mechanic to illistrate a characters str score in lobbing/firing non-mechanical objects?

I would personally try to use a mechanic that uses the character dmg bonus or maybe just raw strength stat, times a factor of x,y, and z for short, med, and long ranges (kind of like Shadowrun uses), based on the weapon or arrow type, to determine distances for thrown/muscle fired weapons.

to start off I would use the assumption that all weapons ranges presented in the PHB are based off of a str score of 10 (being an avearge score) and divide all muscle powered weapons by this number. so that a compsite long bow, firing flight arrows would have multipliers of 6/12/21 for short, medium, and long ranges. this way a str 10 fires the above with the following distnaces (60/120/210) just like the PHB describes, but a character with a str of 15 fires the same bow/arrow as above with the following distnaces (90/180/315). If necassary work in cap ranges for weapons so as to not make it completely unbelievable, yet still makes each characters object throwing ability unique.

let me know what you guys think here, or even let me know if you think the way the ranges presented are fine and I'm tool for trying to "Fix it"... 8O

[Sangalor]

My only concern with this idea revolves around my own understanding (and experience) of accuracy. The further that you have to shoot/throw, the harder it gets to accurately hit a target and I don't think raw strength improves your accuracy.

So I'd think that you could certainly shoot further (i.e. max range could be extended with normal penalties) but short/med range would be the same.

(I'm not sure if there are damage bonuses for short/med range?)

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

[adidamps2]

My only concern with this idea revolves around my own understanding (and experience) of accuracy. The further that you have to shoot/throw, the harder it gets to accurately hit a target and I don't think raw strength improves your accuracy.

So I'd think that you could certainly shoot further (i.e. max range could be extended with normal penalties) but short/med range would be the same.

(I'm not sure if there are damage bonuses for short/med range?)

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

the accuracy part is covered by ones Dex penalty/bonus and range penalties, the only thing I intend str to do is change the distances. a halfling and a hill giant should not, IMO, have the same S/M/L ranges when throwing a dagger or rock (not boulder).

How ever over at DF, some one suggetsed to just use the str pen/bonus for dmg as a +/-10yrd per +/- of the stat to adjust the MAX range of str dependant weapons. which I like and fits in with your concern of increased ranges and accuracy.

[Minstrel]

How ever over at DF, some one suggetsed to just use the str pen/bonus for dmg as a +/-10yrd per +/- of the stat to adjust the MAX range of str dependant weapons. which I like and fits in with your concern of increased ranges and accuracy.

That's how I'd proceed if I were to implement it.

While it's certainly a reasonable rule that str should modify thrown weapon range, for my own games I'd stick without doing so just for the sake of simplicity.

[Shacia Amastacia]

As a player who has for the most part played ranged characters, this has always perplexed me. I agree that S/M ranges should maybe not change, specifically not the S range, since that's where you get the most bonuses to hit/dmg usually, and screwing with that could cause some really unfair advantages. Long ranges though, should take str into account. I like the second option better, it sounds more realistic.

[jeffx]

to start off I would use the assumption that all weapons ranges presented in the PHB are based off of a str score of 10 (being an avearge score) and divide all muscle powered weapons by this number. so that a compsite long bow, firing flight arrows would have multipliers of 6/12/21 for short, medium, and long ranges. this way a str 10 fires the above with the following distnaces (60/120/210) just like the PHB describes, but a character with a str of 15 fires the same bow/arrow as above with the following distnaces (90/180/315). If necassary work in cap ranges for weapons so as to not make it completely unbelievable, yet still makes each characters object throwing ability unique.

I agree it seems like a higher strength should have more of a range on strength based, ranged weapons. But isn't a bow more a mechanical system than I pure strength one? If my fighter with a strength of 15 hands a bow to a fighter strength 12, assuming, the 12 strength fighter can pull it back, the arrow should fly the same distance?

The idea of strength's +/- is probably the approach I would use if I felt the need.

J

[Sangalor]

jeffx

I would suggest that you are correct with regards to the bow - there is a certain limit that it could be pulled before it possibly broke (either bow or string) - but I still think the max range could be sensibly adjusted before that circumstance arose which makes reasonable sense - i.e. an ordinary guy shooting a bow will probably not have the same pull power of a weightlifter.

You could always get totally bogged down in complications and suggest that a stronger character can fire more shots at max range than a weaker one which is fairly realistic as stronger people can do more strength based actions than a weaker person (perhaps number of consecutive shots at max range = Str value?).

[Mira]

There were Strength bows in the rules, IF you have a specially made bow that can take advantage of high strength, then you can do additional damage. Otherwise, no matter what your strength is, you are limited by the bow itself, You can't pull the bow back further because the arrow then fires into your hand (since it's no longer resting on it). The length and weight of the arrow is just as important as the bow itself. (also the reason why you can only use flight arrows in a short bow, it doesn't support the heavier arrows that a longbow CAN support). Of course I'd hope that the person using the strength bow is rich, since the arrows shot from it will almost always be lost or broken.

Mira (If 75% of all accidents happen within 5 miles of home, why not move 10 miles away?)

[Sangalor]

There were Strength bows in the rules, IF you have a specially made bow that can take advantage of high strength, then you can do additional damage. Otherwise, no matter what your strength is, you are limited by the bow itself, You can't pull the bow back further because the arrow then fires into your hand (since it's no longer resting on it). The length and weight of the arrow is just as important as the bow itself. (also the reason why you can only use flight arrows in a short bow, it doesn't support the heavier arrows that a longbow CAN support). Of course I'd hope that the person using the strength bow is rich, since the arrows shot from it will almost always be lost or broken.

Mira (If 75% of all accidents happen within 5 miles of home, why not move 10 miles away?)

I sort of assumed that you would use an appropriate arrow so that it wouldn't injure yourself as you have noted. I still think your max range could be sensibly adjusted to reflect high Str. Would you agree that even a few cm's of extra pull will generate more force allowing the arrow to fly further? And that this extra few cm's could be derived from the ability to pull back further because one archer is stronger than another? (I could be on the totally wrong track here, please advise me if I'm wrong!)

[Minstrel]

I've always found the ranges/penalties TSR gave bows to be very generous. While I suspect it's technically feasable to shoot a longbow 200 yards, doing so to hit anything other than a stationary target would be very hard. I'd say along the lines of -15 or higher to hit, rather than just -5. And that 5% chance of hitting on a d20 might still be generous. Going beyond that point range-wise gets almost into the absurd chances of hitting in small scale combat.

I'm not sure about the merits of extending short/medium ranges much more either. At a certain point there should be some penalties, regardless of how fast you can make the arrow fire.

[Sangalor]

Minstrel

There is "clout archery" which is basically taking shots at long distance and attempting to get them within marked out boundaries. The closer to the centre of the marked out boundary, the better the score for the archer. So accuracy can be maintained relatively reasonably by a skilled archer on a stationary target at long distance.

I admit it would be increasingly difficult to hit anything that was moving around alot at long distance though.

[jeffx]

jeffx

I would suggest that you are correct with regards to the bow - there is a certain limit that it could be pulled before it possibly broke (either bow or string) - but I still think the max range could be sensibly adjusted before that circumstance arose which makes reasonable sense - i.e. an ordinary guy shooting a bow will probably not have the same pull power of a weightlifter.

Sounds like a Mythbusters episode in the making.

I'm not an archer but I do play one on TV. Okay, I don't even play one on TV. There maybe some complex algorithm showing how pulling the bow string an extra centimeter will generate X more distance but it all just seems too complicated to even deal with. I also think there maybe a point that yields a negative result in propulsion. Trying to imagine drawing a longbow passed the cheek and what the results may be.

Great....now I need to go to an archery range.

[adidamps2]

I've always found the ranges/penalties TSR gave bows to be very generous.

I'm not sure about the merits of extending short/medium ranges much more either. At a certain point there should be some penalties, regardless of how fast you can make the arrow fire.

i'm not argueing agaist this, what I am suggesting though, is that a Halfling should not be able to throw a rock the same distances, even tactifully, as an Ogre. some thing should acount for this IMO, and Str and Size factors should be, IMO again, factored in.

I'm just looking for a practicle way to do it, with out completely ruining the system, or creating musclulared skilled archer's able to throw rocks a 1/4 mile and accurately hit something either.

[Minstrel]

I'm just looking for a practicle way to do it, with out completely ruining the system, or creating musclulared skilled archer's able to throw rocks a 1/4 mile and accurately hit something either.

My point was mostly that the upper range of the range categories (at least as it applied to bows) was a pretty high limit. If you want to do something like that, I'd probably make it smaller for short or weak folk rather than extending the L category.

Minstrel

There is "clout archery" which is basically taking shots at long distance and attempting to get them within marked out boundaries. The closer to the centre of the marked out boundary, the better the score for the archer. So accuracy can be maintained relatively reasonably by a skilled archer on a stationary target at long distance.

I admit it would be increasingly difficult to hit anything that was moving around alot at long distance though.

A quick wikipedia search says that the British clout archery has adult men shooting at 180 yards, and awards maximum points for coming within 18 inches of the flag. Points are awarded all the way out to 12 feet.

So I don't think we're really disagreeing on anything here. Maybe the by-the-book penalties are OK if you're shooting at something that's not moving, but even then, I don't think I'd push the range out past 210 yards (I think that's category L for a longbow).

[jeffx]

If anyone cares, I slept at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Actually, I pulled out my old high school, Physics texts. A long bow is a spring so Hooke's Law is applied. There is actually a pretty good link http://www.stortford-archers.org.uk/medieval.htm

[Sangalor]

Physics - I'm out!