People are STILL talking about level limits?

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Halaster Blackcloak
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People are STILL talking about level limits?

Post by Halaster Blackcloak »

You know, sometimes I feel like I'm an alien from an advanced planet living amongst a strange and alien race of beings who lack critical reasoning skills. I had to go find an old post of mine at DF, and had to search in the 1E forum. Whenever I do that, I skim the topics just to see what's going on there, usually reinforcing my perception of the site as "fallen" as with Rome. What did I find there? A four page (so far) discussion about how to handle the "problem" of removing the stupidest and most needless rule in the entire 50+ year history of the game - demi-human level limits.

I've debated this topic more times than I can count, at every D&D site I've ever been on, for an entire quarter of a century. And in all that time, no one has ever been able to prove - in an objective, logical manner backed by proof - that removing it would somehow unbalance the game. With every single argument presented to me claiming that removing the rule would result in demi-humans dominating the game world and also in unbalancing the game, I have been able to shoot each and every claim down as ridiculous, and I have been able to show in each and every case - using in-game logic and logical explanations that do not in any way threaten suspension of disbelief - that removing the rule has literally zero effect on the campaign or the game world in which it is set.

And yet there it is - a thread asking how to buff up humans because removing demi-human level limits would leave humans "in a nasty place" (I quote). WTF? Do people continually repeat this canard because it's an urban myth they still believe in, like the myth that lemmings commit suicide en masse by jumping off cliffs? It seems to me that no one (outside of myself and perhaps a few others) have ever bothered to look at the issue clearly, logically, and totally.

In that quarter century of "debate" (I use irony quotes, because usually within 2 pages it turns into ad hominem attacks against me, not rational arguments of fact), no one has ever been able to give me a valid example of the removal of the rule causing an "imbalance" in their campaign. The very few times people attempted to "prove" that removing the rule "unbalanced" their game, all that ever really happened was that more players played demi-humans and fewer played humans - which by itself is not by any definition "unbalancing" to the game, nor detrimental to humans as a dominant race. In fact, after 25 years of analyzing and debating this, I've revealed beyond any question whatsoever, that the only "negative" effect removing the level limits can have is that fewer players will play humans in that campaign. And that's not even a universal rule as my games never lack human PCs despite never having used level limits. I can say the same for several DM friends as well. And that effect is "negative" only if the DM desires a predominantly human party. What's more, that desire for should be - short of special circumstances I've posited in the past, such as a DM wanting to run an Underdark campaign where it would be more challenging to have a greater number of humans that infravisioned demi-humans - none of the DM's damned business! Players should be allowed to play whatever race they choose.

Bottom line, the rules exists and is "justified" (if you can call it that) because Gygax preferred his players to run mainly human PCs. Maybe it's because he was not confident in his ability to run a game with mainly demi-human PCs who gain certain perks that humans do not, perhaps he actually believed the silly and illogical bullshit excuse he made for the rule and the subsequent 2E "declaration" that a world without demi-human level limits would become dominated by demi-humans to the point where humans are a slave race. That insane and unfounded meme started in the 2E DMG and has been parroted foolishly by non-thinkers for decades since. In any case, Gygax was dead wrong. It has become, like the suicidal lemmings canard, a self-perpetuating myth devoid of fact.

I can't understand this knee-jerk reaction where people believe that if they remove demi-human level limits, doing so by default means that they must "boost" humans in some way. It's just a stupid, knee-jerk reaction utterly devoid of analytical thinking concerning the reality of the game rules. All anyone needs to do is search the past posts on the topic and read what I've written. I have absolutely obliterated and eviscerated every argument ever put to me about why it's a "problem" to remove that rule. Every one. Definitively like a prosecutor destroying a bad witness. And yet the myth persists. I'm tempted to go dig up that old hidden account there I never use and offer cash to anyone who can justify their claims in a clear, logical manner. Seriously, I would be willing to offer cold hard cash to anyone who can prove a problem exists with removing the rule, using logic, in-game logic, and suspension of disbelief rules of fantasy writing. So far, after 25 years of this insanity, no one has ever been able to do so, objectively speaking. All they can do is argue "no, Halaster, you're wrong!" and when I challenge them to prove me wrong in a logical, rational manner, they hided behind name calling and gang-up tactics. I may just have to go stir the pot one more time, for old time's sake! :roll:
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Re: People are STILL talking about level limits?

Post by Halaster Blackcloak »

What's more, every "fix" for the "problem" that has ever been offered has either:

1. Accomplished nothing, making the entire issue irrelevant
2. Created the same problems incurred by the demi-human level limits in the first place
3. Created a new class of demi-humans, namely humans with enhanced powers

Every single "fix" ever presented, that I have ever read, has been pointless, unnecessary, and unbalancing it itself.
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Re: People are STILL talking about level limits?

Post by Tawnos76 »

I have always gone with the optional rule that is costs double the experience to go up for Demi-humans and allow them to continue forward. Never had an issue with players not playing humans or choosing non-humans over humans. Never had an imbalance and it allowed my players to enjoy the game more as they might not have even chosen a Dwarf who would be stuck way behind the human counterpart. As it has not imbalanced any of my games I see no reason to disallow it and the player are having fun and that is the point at the end of the day.
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Re: People are STILL talking about level limits?

Post by Halaster Blackcloak »

Tawnos wrote:
I have always gone with the optional rule that is costs double the experience to go up for Demi-humans and allow them to continue forward
But why? What I mean is, what practical purpose does that serve and why is that tweak needed in the first place? It's essentially a commonly uses non-fix to a non-problem that causes the same issue for players as the original rule itself. It's like throwing gasoline in a fire.
Never had an issue with players not playing humans or choosing non-humans over humans
Same here. I've literally never used level limits and yet I've never had a lack of humans. Usually the party was always between 1/3 and 1/2 human. Some people at DF complained about having no humans in the party when they took out level limits and my response was: "So fucking what? Who cares?". I never hear anyone complaining that there are not enough gnomes in the party or enough halflings. The whole issue is ridiculous.
Never had an imbalance and it allowed my players to enjoy the game more as they might not have even chosen a Dwarf who would be stuck way behind the human counterpart.
Exactly! I did the single most comprehensive and exhaustive analysis of the rule back on DF and proved beyond any question whatsoever that the rule is stupid and serves no legitimate purpose and that removing it cannot and will not unbalance a campaign or a world. The whole canard about uber-high level elves dominating the world is as false as the urban myth that lemmings commit mass suicide.
As it has not imbalanced any of my games I see no reason to disallow it and the player are having fun and that is the point at the end of the day.
Agreed. As far as I'm concerned, unless the campaign calls for a certain proportion of races (for example, an Underdark campaign where the DM needs to have at least some of the party challenged by inability to see in darkness, or a campaign where the players are mainly playing elves because it's about the elves and their battles with outside forces, etc.), the DM has no business worrying or trying to influence which races the players play. Only a poor DM would have an issue with "not enough humans" or "too many elves".
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Re: People are STILL talking about level limits?

Post by McDeath »

I think we should post the level limits as D&D has progressed, noting at one time race was class then split (which is a good option). Of note is some crpgs of the early era gave bonus and penalties to stats for sex, race, and profession but those games had improvement in numbers that don't compute to tabletop pnp.
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Ignore 3e+ as it gets even messier.

If I recall 2e really raised the limits. There is also the question of human limits? Is it 20, 30, 36, 40, 100? More?
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Re: People are STILL talking about level limits?

Post by Halaster Blackcloak »

I think for example the level limit for elves as wizards (what most people complain about) was 9th level in 1E and 12th level in 2E. But as I said, level limits are literally a non-issue. They literally wasted ink printing it on the page because it serves no purpose and has no effect in the game.
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Re: People are STILL talking about level limits?

Post by McDeath »

Demihumans and humanoids can't be all the classes humans can they? I don't believe so (talking core books as I rarely dipped my toes in the handbooks until i bought a Core Rules 1.0 & 2.0. Lol.. they had more than core Rules.

Humans can dual class
Demihumans can multi-class
Humanoids... dunno.

Say every races could be any class, multi class, and/or dual class.... would there be lack of human PCs? Dunno since that isn't btb rules. Regular stock Humans would still be 3-18 in stats, have human aging, human weight/height/appearance and other races would have their respective racial heritage. Some say everyone would be drow elves or w/e. Lol. Really?

There are crpgs race means little other than resists, stat bonus/penalty, and age. Everyone can level up the same. Other pnps? I'd have to scrutinize each one and see. I really doubt it makes a damn difference unless players and DM want to make it a problem some how.
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Re: People are STILL talking about level limits?

Post by Halaster Blackcloak »

McDeath wrote:
Demihumans and humanoids can't be all the classes humans can they? I don't believe so (talking core books as I rarely dipped my toes in the handbooks until i bought a Core Rules 1.0 & 2.0. Lol.. they had more than core Rules.
No, and I've kept most of the racial/class restrictions because those at least make sense. So only humans can be monks, paladins and druids for example. Dwarves can't be thieves. Stuff like that. Humans are the only race that can be any class, which is their "perk", balancing out the perks of demi-humans.
Humans can dual class
Demihumans can multi-class
Humanoids... dunno.
Humanoids I'm not sure. I forget because I never cared for dual or multi-classed PCs and have only ever had one - a ranger/druid. Actually, one of my players had that combo once too.
Say every races could be any class, multi class, and/or dual class.... would there be lack of human PCs? Dunno since that isn't btb rules.
Possibly, but what would it matter? For years now I like to look into root causes and issues. So for example, so what if there was a lack of humans in a party? How and why would that be a problem? As a player, I don't care who else is on my team, as long as I'm playing the PC I want to play. As a DM, I don't care what races or classes the PCs play. I prefer a good mix, personally, but whatever makes the players happy is fine with me. That's a major point I've been arguing with people from DF to PADND to WOTC - so what if there are fewer humans in the party? How and why specifically is that a problem? No one has ever answered that question. Never.
Regular stock Humans would still be 3-18 in stats, have human aging, human weight/height/appearance and other races would have their respective racial heritage. Some say everyone would be drow elves or w/e. Lol. Really?
I've never seen it happen. During some of the major level limits wars at DF, I specifically challenged people to give me an example of an actual experience of a campaign getting derailed because of the removal of level limits and no one had an answer. The only argument anyone ever presented to me that stood up to even the slightest scrutiny was the complaint that when they removed level limits, fewer players chose human characters. To which I replied, as always: "So what? Why is that a problem, precisely?" And no one ever had an answer beyond "Well I wanted more humans in the party." My Reply? "Tough shit. You're the DM, not the players, so what business is it of yours who or what the players play? That's not the DM's purview."

No one in 25 years of debating this has ever shown me a legitimate reason why it's a problem removing the level limits, while on the counter side I've shown dozens of arguments why the rule creates problems.

I'm not saying I'm some scholar on the issue, only that I think I'm the only person who's been crazy enough to actually analyze the issue from every conceivable angle and look at every aspect of it and so I ended up building an airtight, irrefutable case against the existence of level limits and why they're not needed.

Goddamm it! I just checked and I don't have that old argument and all my points saved. Now I gotta go to DF and find and copy all that stuff!

Argh! #@
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