What do OOP players want?

[Minstrel]

I'm going back and forth trying to think into what sort of OOP project I'd like to sink my teeth once this season at work calms down and I have some time this summer (and hopefully leave this miserable job!).

Obviously modules are always in demand as the number of them published or being worked on here, or other sites show. I'd make this into a poll if I could think of enough other things to put down.

Here are some ideas of other things. What would actually get use in your game?

Printable Item cards, a-la gamemastery. I had been working on some, had about a dozen done, with I think a good reception, but can't paste any samples until I get my old PC back up and running.

A book of short adventures, suitable for most generic settings. More than just monster encounters, but not longer than a single session game.

A book of small towns, with detail on each building and stats for some prominent npcs, a few adventure hooks, spells and items. Again as with the adventure book, a generic enough setting to throw into most worlds.

Some sort of electronic tool, like the old Dungeon Master's assistant, that could cook up npc's (based on core races/classes) on the fly, either fully statted or abbreviated for quick use.

A book or booklet of npc's of varying levels, for each core class and race. Suitable for use as henchmen or foes. Similar to what you'd get out of the electronic tool above, but fine tuned by hand a little more and in ready to print format. I think the 1E DMG might have had something like this?

Any other ideas of stuff that would get some use?

[Varl]

I use the Battlegrounds program from the Battlegrounds website. While it's a great program for what it does (visual internet AD&D sessions for remote gamers), and thanks to Heruca over there, I have managed to modify it enough for my local gaming sessions. Still, I wouldn't mind seeing someone that's into the phenomenon of projector mapping for the tabletop create a true dual client DM program that has Fog of War, layers for revealing various game features, and as many visual aids a DM could use in combination with miniatures on the tabletop. One of these days, I'm thinking of commissioning someone to make me that program, since I couldn't program my way out of a VCR.

As for the item cards idea, Minstrel, I already greatly enjoy collecting and using Gamemastery cards in our games. I think using visual props like these help keep intentional and unintentional misinterpretations from occuring. I really like the idea that what you as a player carry in the form of cards is what your character possesses, and when something is damaged, lost, or destroyed, it's very easy to mark off or hand over what was affected. How many times have we heard about games where players aren't quite honest when it comes to marking down or erasing character sheet info? This is where these excel imo, so any project that assists the Gamemastery lines works for me.

[Minstrel]

Whew, the first one is above my head! Although I agree, it would be terrific.

But I'm glad to see interest in the card idea. I'll never be able to produce anything of the visual quality of Paizo (will paste what I came up with once I get my bloody PC back online), but I'd settle for high enough quality that players could print their own copies of mine. I've stumbled over the fact that, while it sounds nice, I doubt that anyone would ever be able to print them on anything remotely as thick as card stock, but maybe there's thick enough inkjet-friendly paper out there to do the job.

Edit: remembered I had a couple pics on deviantart (low res versions).

Link and link

[Varl]

I hear you on the card stock problem. Those Deviantart pics ar great. That'd be all you'd need to make serviceable cards.

[Mira]

create a true dual client DM program that has Fog of War, layers for revealing various game features, and as many visual aids a DM could use in combination with miniatures on the tabletop.

Have you looked at OpenRPG and what it can do? I know it can do the 'fog of war' stuff, and you can decide how much to reveal on any map. (I worked with the developer on the OSX side of that, it worked under Windows, now it also works on OSX)

It's free, so it doesn't hurt to try it out I found an AD&D node for PCs the other day, so I know other old school gamers are using it besides me

Mira (Back up my hard drive? How do I put it in reverse?)

[Halaster Blackcloak]

I'm not a huge fan of card stuff, although those cards you made do look nice and I can see them being useful, ala Wizard Spell Cards.

Short anthologies of adventures is always a hit, while towns and NPCs are very useful as well. I think the trick (and the challenge) is in making such items unique and different as well as useful. In other words, something out of the ordinary.

I'd love to build up Halaster's Tome of Monsters with entries from other people as well.

We should do a poll. I'll concoct one later.

[Shacia Amastacia]

I work in facilites management, and we do all kinds of copy work. I was reading about the problem you were thinking of for having someone self print the cards. Instead of cardstock, my suggestion would be to have someone self print, and then laminate the cards afterwords. It is fairly cheap, espically if you do it your self. Lamination would also protect the cards from the inevitable spilled drink as well. I have been in a game where we used index cards to do this sort of thing. No pictures, just the name and description, but I think this is much more awesome.

[Varl]

Have you looked at OpenRPG and what it can do? I know it can do the 'fog of war' stuff, and you can decide how much to reveal on any map. (I worked with the developer on the OSX side of that, it worked under Windows, now it also works on OSX)

It's free, so it doesn't hurt to try it out

I'll check it out. Thanks Mira!

Nope. That's not quite what I'm looking for.

[Minstrel]

laminate

Damn don't know why I didn't think of that.

The only possible downside I can come up with is that you can't write in that text area on the back. But I wonder if a wet erase could write on laminated paper.

[Shacia Amastacia]

Yes, it will. A wet erase will come off IF it's not left there for a loooong time. Even if it is, it will come mostly off, with just a "shadow" of the previous writing showing. The only downside is that you wouldn't be able to write as much, since a wet erase marker is thicker than, say, a pen or pencil.

[Algolei]

I use laminated grids, suitable for that edition I won't mention with all the 5' squares. Back in the 90s, I laminated three or four different types of paper I bought from The Armory, each one about 24" by 36".

I guess The Armory must be long out of business by now, though....

Wait, no they're not! They sell stuff at Paizo! ==> http://paizo.com/store/byCompany/t/theArmory/tools

Ha! Ha ha! I own most of the products on that page! So that's where I got them all from!! Hell, I've cut a finger on most of those products! In fact, that Heavy Duty Knife w/Cap is the one that gave me tetanus in my right thumb -- that was a pretty cool episode in my otherwise boring life.

--Bah ha ha, two feet to my left is my can of Armory spray primer! Wow, according to the address on the can, they haven't even moved since I bought the large sheets of graph paper I was mentioning.

And yet they seem to have a very poor presence on the internet. Hmmmm! Can't find a homepage for them anywhere.

[Minstrel]

I was trying to find if the Armory had a website, and came across this instead, and I have to say, it made my night:

http://www.thewarstore.com/TheWarStoreMiniatures.html

That's not really what made my night...looking up exactly what "Zardoz" was on youtube is what did it.

I give to anyone who has not seen this incredible piece of cinema, the trailer for "Zardoz", starring Sean Connery:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbGVIdA3dx0

I MUST rent this now. Holy shit. Damn.

EDIT: this is perhaps my most off topic post ever. And sorry - couldn't find a real website for the armory...

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Zardoz is a bizarre movie from the 70's. Best opening ever though! A huge, floating stone head coughs out guns, then says:

"The gun is good. The penis is evil. The penis shoots seeds and makes new life to poison the earth with the plague of man, as it once was. But the gun shoots death and purifies the earth of the filth of brutals. Go forth and kill!

Just totally bizarre! I have it on DVD.

Oh, a side note...can anyone tell me why i keep getting this error when I try to open any Youtube video?

Alert
Error: Doucment.GetElementById ("player div") has no properties.

I click ok and it plays fine. This just started happening the other day. What's going on, and how can I fix it?

[Minstrel]

No luck finding that error message. I can only guess it's flash related, because youtube videos play in a flash player, but beyond that I don't know.

My best guess: maybe reinstall or upgrade flash?

[Zherbus]

That trailor confused and pleased me all at once.

[McDeath]

I'm not a huge fan of card stuff, although those cards you made do look nice and I can see them being useful, ala Wizard Spell Cards.

Short anthologies of adventures is always a hit, while towns and NPCs are very useful as well. I think the trick (and the challenge) is in making such items unique and different as well as useful. In other words, something out of the ordinary.

I'd love to build up Halaster's Tome of Monsters with entries from other people as well.

We should do a poll. I'll concoct one later.

I'm still combing through my monsters so maybe one day I'll get them written up. On the plus side, I finally found my poison chart. Turns out it lacked the various toxins but did go up to poison type S or something. It was lurking in my random dungeon generation project of years past that I'm thinking of resurrecting. While I was at it I went and found various poison netbooks online and searched various types and sciences about poison.

[jeffx]

What would I like to see and work on? Does everyone know what Pathfinder by Paizo Publishing is? The recently got a lot of press by telling Hasbro they can stick 4th Edition where the sun doesn't shine. It wasn't that severe of a comment but they are are going to continue to release their Pathfinder product using the 3.5 rule set. Apparently it is going to keep a lot of people from updating to 4E for a while. That got me thinking. What could be created that would make people want to play older editions (or things "close to" older editions)? With a goal of bringing new players to or beloved edition.

I'm working on an assumption that most people upgrade to new versions of things to continue to get new content. Given the choice, people will pick a product that has new releases than one that doesn't. I am also working on an opinion that most content being produced for OOP editions cater to older players who grew up on the edition. People who haven't changed.

My idea, one that I think could bring people to older edition games, is to create a module subscription service. Basically copy what Paizo is doing with Pathfinder for, let's say 2nd Edition AD&D. I have never actually seen a Pathfinder book so I am basing this idea on what I have read and some new thoughts. But you get a group of people with various creative talents (story-teller, cartographer, artist, play testers, editor, ...) and produce a series of modules that are all parts of a larger story. So every quarter a new 2nd Edition Module complete with maps, new creatures, new items, etc is released and delivered. After 4-6 issues, a new volume comes out with an all new story arc.

There are a lot of obstacles to this. Here are a few I have thought of and don't know answers to. What is the development license for AD&D? Are you allowed to do a project like OSRIC with 2E? I think you can but I am not sure. I am fairly certain you can't call it D&D. Is it possible to get a team of people to produce quality content 4 times a year? Core manuals? You can't exactly walk into Borders and buy a 2E PHB.

That is what I want to see for OOP projects.

[Varl]

What would I like to see and work on? Does everyone know what Pathfinder by Paizo Publishing is?

I've seen it, yes. Hell, I'm subscribed to it. The reason I'm subscribed to it is for the adventures. Yeah, they're printed under the d20 ruleset, but when it all comes down to it, the heart and meat of the adventures is why I subscribe. Forget the crunch. Tis easy enough to open up the 2e MM and adjust. Tis easy enough to make notes on certain things in an adventure that need tweaking to 2nd edition specs.

I recently ran the Crown of the Kobold King module. It was great. The first party that went in was a TPK.

The recently got a lot of press by telling Hasbro they can stick 4th Edition where the sun doesn't shine. It wasn't that severe of a comment but they are are going to continue to release their Pathfinder product using the 3.5 rule set. Apparently it is going to keep a lot of people from updating to 4E for a while. That got me thinking.

That was a gutsy call by Paizo. I applaud them for not toeing the official line any longer. I wish someone would have picked up 2nd edition at the advent of 3e, and not Kenzer & Co. either. Imagine a 2nd edition Paizo for us today.

I'm working on an assumption that most people upgrade to new versions of things to continue to get new content. Given the choice, people will pick a product that has new releases than one that doesn't. I am also working on an opinion that most content being produced for OOP editions cater to older players who grew up on the edition. People who haven't changed.

Reasonable assumptions.

My idea, one that I think could bring people to older edition games, is to create a module subscription service. Basically copy what Paizo is doing with Pathfinder for, let's say 2nd Edition AD&D.

Good luck. I wish we could too, but there's that perpetual spectre leering over every move we make. I hate that. I absolutely hate it. Because of their (rightful?) fears of competition, they lock down most attempts to reinvigorate the edition. I think the key is to fly just barely under their radar, so as to maximize creativity without setting off their infringement detectors.

I have never actually seen a Pathfinder book so I am basing this idea on what I have read and some new thoughts. But you get a group of people with various creative talents (story-teller, cartographer, artist, play testers, editor, ...) and produce a series of modules that are all parts of a larger story. So every quarter a new 2nd Edition Module complete with maps, new creatures, new items, etc is released and delivered. After 4-6 issues, a new volume comes out with an all new story arc.

I bet you could find most people to work on this, except artists, right Halaster?

There are a lot of obstacles to this. Here are a few I have thought of and don't know answers to. What is the development license for AD&D? Are you allowed to do a project like OSRIC with 2E? I think you can but I am not sure. I am fairly certain you can't call it D&D. Is it possible to get a team of people to produce quality content 4 times a year? Core manuals?

Maybe.

[jeffx]

First off, I love that sig you use. Don't want to thread jack but I have seen so many things recently that make me realize how much I under appreciated Gary Gygax. Not the work, the man.

I've seen it, yes. Hell, I'm subscribed to it. The reason I'm subscribed to it is for the adventures.

Do you get the print or the PDF version? I have heard a lot of great things about the quality. Is it true?

I recently ran the Crown of the Kobold King module. It was great. The first party that went in was a TPK.

That was a gutsy call by Paizo. I applaud them for not toeing the official line any longer. I wish someone would have picked up 2nd edition at the advent of 3e, and not Kenzer & Co. either. Imagine a 2nd edition Paizo for us today.

Would it have been possible with 2E? They didn't have an Open Gaming License then. Or did they? Aren't the new Pathfinders series going to be standalone? Meaning you can play it with only Pathfinder branded books?

Good luck. I wish we could too, but there's that perpetual spectre leering over every move we make. I hate that. I absolutely hate it. Because of their (rightful?) fears of competition, they lock down most attempts to reinvigorate the edition. I think the key is to fly just barely under their radar, so as to maximize creativity without setting off their infringement detectors.

Thanks for your insight.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Jeffx wrote:

What could be created that would make people want to play older editions (or things "close to" older editions)? With a goal of bringing new players to or beloved edition.

Nothing. At least, nothing that would not get a massive cease and desist from greedy WOTC. In order to get people playing OOP editions, you need to advertise it. And market it. And make people aware of it. And get people excited about it. And that costs tons of time, energy, and money. And then WOTC puts on its steel toed boots, kicks you in the balls, and you have a whole new set of problems to deal with. And 99.9% of the people you worked so hard to provide a great alternative to will turn their backs and refuse to stand in support of you against the greedy giant. It's the way the world is.

I hate to be a downer, but I'm also a harsh realist. That's how it works, like it or not. And besides that, I have about 2 good crusades left in my spirit at this point in life, with one of the about to start, and one held in reserve for the inevitable civilization crash to come. I just don't have it in me to crusade for an OOP revival, when apathy is the usual response.

I prefer to just do my own thing. If people hear about it or we mention it and they check it out, great. But no way to I personally want anything to do with an OOP revival crusade.

I'm working on an assumption that most people upgrade to new versions of things to continue to get new content. Given the choice, people will pick a product that has new releases than one that doesn't. I am also working on an opinion that most content being produced for OOP editions cater to older players who grew up on the edition. People who haven't changed.

I'd agree on each and every point there!

My idea, one that I think could bring people to older edition games, is to create a module subscription service. Basically copy what Paizo is doing with Pathfinder for, let's say 2nd Edition AD&D. I have never actually seen a Pathfinder book so I am basing this idea on what I have read and some new thoughts. But you get a group of people with various creative talents (story-teller, cartographer, artist, play testers, editor, ...) and produce a series of modules that are all parts of a larger story. So every quarter a new 2nd Edition Module complete with maps, new creatures, new items, etc is released and delivered. After 4-6 issues, a new volume comes out with an all new story arc.

I'm not sure you realize the work involved in that idea. Or perhaps you just underestimate the sheer apathy, laziness, and lack of time that most people have issues with. The BIP Project for example, has had several so-called "developers" who had no time to do anything, unless "anything" is defined as posting lots of messages on discussion forums. Priorities and all that.

Getting people excited enough to participate in anything for any length of time is like convincing a person to undergo root canal work without anesthesia. They get excited for about 72 hours, then they fall off the earth. Either real life swallows them whole with work and family, or they're just generally not good at stick-to-it-iveness (how the hell is that word spelled anyway? ). They start out and abandon things, and nothing ever gets done. Our Illusionist Handbook project is on its third set of developers and we're about where we were 2 years ago.

I couldn't even imagine in my wildest dreams finding a group of people excited enough to do something like that. Where TSR had a staff of hundreds working on RoU, we have four...count them, four...people working on RoUIII: The Deadly Levels. We have 45 members signed up here, BTW. But 4 developers on Undermountain.

Especially for a free product, I think it'd be easier to discover a new element than it would be to discover 3 people ready, willing, and able to stick to a project like the one you suggest.

There are a lot of obstacles to this. Here are a few I have thought of and don't know answers to. What is the development license for AD&D? Are you allowed to do a project like OSRIC with 2E? I think you can but I am not sure. I am fairly certain you can't call it D&D. Is it possible to get a team of people to produce quality content 4 times a year? Core manuals? You can't exactly walk into Borders and buy a 2E PHB.

There is no development license for AD&D. You can use OSRIC for 1E stuff, and Rob has some system from a few years back, and I believe a couple of people at DF have developed their own "core rules" system or something. It's more an ego thing than a useful thing, if you ask me. And as for OSRIC, considering the personalities and history of the people who developed it, I would sooner sever my own testicles with a dull rusty spork than use their stuff. It's a matter of principle.

Is it possibl to get a team of developers to work their asses off for free to produce a free product for others? Not counting myself, I have 3 hardcore developers here. That's the total over the course of 3 years. It's possible, just like it's possible that I get hit by lightning later tonight or possible that I win the lottery tomorrow. But likely? No.

Maybe, just maybe, once we release RoUIII and people fall over in shock over both the scope and the quality, then perhaps there'll be enough excitement generated to where people will see the potential and want to be a part of something exciting. More likely there'll be a legal battle, since a couple of immature dickheads at DF are already threatening to write WOTC due to the insane grudges these people hold (and which ironically, they accuse me of holding! ). Bah humbug. They can cry to WOTC all they like, I just don't care. Won't change a thing as far as I'm concerned. Nobody can stop me from doing what I want to do.

I wouldn't count of finding even 1 or 2 people willing to start a project like you mention any time soon. If you can pull it off and find the people, that would indeed be great. But just don't get your hopes up. Been there, done that, got the battle scars to prove it.

Varl wrote:

I bet you could find most people to work on this, except artists, right Halaster?

Oh man, you practically gotta get on your knees to find an artist, and you'd better be damned good once you start kneeling!

It's actually hard to find anyone to do anything these days. People are just so busy and so tired it seems. And then there's the lazy and apathetic crowd. It's just looking for a needle in a haystack.

Then again, look at how many great, active members we've signed up recently (as in the past two months). Jared Synn, Blackmote, Doirche, Minstrel, Algolei, Shacia Amastacia, Evil Eli, Adidamps2, JeffX, Sangalor, etc. We also have a handful of new members who are just lurking so far, but hopefully they'll decide to get active, which would be awesome!

And we still have Mira, Varl, Zherbus, McDeath, Beowulf, and others from the old says still here and still very active. I think overall we have a really great, hardcore group here. Again, I think people might just be waiting to see if we can pull it off. We had one module released (which I hope more people download and discuss and let us know what they think), PaSquall's Caves of Sydwall. But I think the sheer magnitude of RoUIII is what's going to sway people towards activity.

Well, I hope I wasn't too much like a funeral procession here. I just got done with a 9 hr. real estate seminar that I swear to God seemed designed to stomp the life and zeal out of anyone attending. I still haven't thrown off the gloomy mood I guess.

[McDeath]

What's Pathfinder and is it free?

[jeffx]

What's Pathfinder and is it free?

Pathfinder is not free. It is a module subscription. Paizo technically call it an Adventure Path. Here is a link

[jeffx]

Jeffx wrote:

What could be created that would make people want to play older editions (or things "close to" older editions)? With a goal of bringing new players to or beloved edition.

Nothing.

Nothing. Really? So how does Paizo do it? Castles and Crusades is close to the feel of the older editions, it could be done under that brand. OSRIC is also an option. I couldn't let the personality of another project team stand in my way of accomplishing something. I am a bit of an optimist. I can list my failures and people would run out of bandwidth downloading the simple text of the message. It hasn't stopped me from trying again. Some people claim that is the sign of insanity. I will eventually get a better result.

I hate to be a downer, but I'm also a harsh realist. That's how it works, like it or not. And besides that, I have about 2 good crusades left in my spirit at this point in life, with one of the about to start, and one held in reserve for the inevitable civilization crash to come. I just don't have it in me to crusade for an OOP revival, when apathy is the usual response.

I wasn't asking. I was just mentioning what I want out of OOP games. I am not recruiting or asking for a single resource from BiP. It is what I have been working on in the midnight hours. Some people are apathetic. Some are pesimistic. Me, I just run into brick walls over and over again. Learn a little. Get up. Lick the wounds. Charge toward the wall again. I figure each "crusade" takes 4 years of my life. I got about 10 of 'em left in me. Who knows, maybe it will only take one more.

I'm not sure you realize the work involved in that idea. Or perhaps you just underestimate the sheer apathy, laziness, and lack of time that most people have issues with. The BIP Project for example, has had several so-called "developers" who had no time to do anything, unless "anything" is defined as posting lots of messages on discussion forums. Priorities and all that.

I know all to well the work involved. I have a failed publishing company to show for it. The failure had nothing to do with anyone's apathy or laziness. It was all my fault. I picked the wrong things to publish in a market that didn't want it. Did I learn something that I will apply to this if I ever get beyond the "business" plan? A lot.

Getting people excited enough to participate in anything for any length of time is like convincing a person to undergo root canal work without anesthesia. They get excited for about 72 hours, then they fall off the earth. Either real life swallows them whole with work and family, or they're just generally not good at stick-to-it-iveness (how the hell is that word spelled anyway? ). They start out and abandon things, and nothing ever gets done. Our Illusionist Handbook project is on its third set of developers and we're about where we were 2 years ago.

Please don't take this personally. That is a failure in project management. Many times it is unavoidable. If I can't keep people excited in a project, I am the wrong person to manage that project. It is the wrong project to do.

Especially for a free product, I think it'd be easier to discover a new element than it would be to discover 3 people ready, willing, and able to stick to a project like the one you suggest.

Did I say anything about free? Did I say anything about people volunteering their time to this project? I already have an artist and an editor. I am actively trying to learn some things to fill the remaining staff holes. I have my attorney trying to find where I stand with core rules. I am about 25 days into this dream. In 45 more days it will either be dead or a project map will be in place.

I have 3 hardcore developers here. That's the total over the course of 3

And the output, Doirche's map, is what brought me to this forum.

Oh man, you practically gotta get on your knees to find an artist, and you'd better be damned good once you start kneeling!

Don't want "artists" I want professionals. Worst case scenario, I pay artists for commissioned work.

[Shacia Amastacia]

It's actually hard to find anyone to do anything these days. People are just so busy and so tired it seems. And then there's the lazy and apathetic crowd. It's just looking for a needle in a haystack.

Then again, look at how many great, active members we've signed up recently (as in the past two months). Jared Synn, Blackmote, Doirche, Minstrel, Algolei, Shacia Amastacia, Evil Eli, Adidamps2, JeffX, Sangalor, etc. We also have a handful of new members who are just lurking so far, but hopefully they'll decide to get active, which would be awesome!

Thank you! How might a 3.x'r help out around here anyway? I'd love to be able to contribute where I could. I am going to be starting an AD&D UM campaign this weekend, so I'll know more about it soon, but how can I help now and going forward? Is there maybe some material(weapons, monsters, etc.) from 3.x that maybe someone would like to see converted backward, that I could help with, since I'm really familiar with it all?

[Varl]

First off, I love that sig you use. Don't want to thread jack but I have seen so many things recently that make me realize how much I under appreciated Gary Gygax. Not the work, the man.

I love that quote too. It speaks volumes.

Do you get the print or the PDF version?

Both.

I have heard a lot of great things about the quality. Is it true?

Yeah. The quality of the modules they create are as good as any I've seen, and the funny part is that each module even exudes a bit of old school feel to them, strictly as far as the writing goes.

Would it have been possible with 2E?

Probably not back then, but now that they consider it a dead edition, I don't see why it couldn't be possible, but we know that'll never happen either because of their competitive fears.

They didn't have an Open Gaming License then. Or did they?

No they didn't.

Aren't the new Pathfinders series going to be standalone? Meaning you can play it with only Pathfinder branded books?

They can be used standalone, yes, but they can easily be added in to any campaign world.