The Emasculation of 3rd Edition

[jeffx]

I'd wear it! Hell, I'd have worn it to the Hanson concert!

Hanson? As in Isaac and Zac Hanson? At least now I know how I can judge those everything of today sucks line comes from.

[Sangalor]

I'd like to apologise if my ramblings offended anyone as well.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Jeffx wrote:

Hanson? As in Isaac and Zac Hanson? At least now I know how I can judge those everything of today sucks line comes from.

Shame on you! I bet you haven't heard them since Mmmbop a decade ago. they're all grown up and married with children now. Great stuff!

Plus I usually get to hang out with the band afterwards. And the girls! All 23, 24 yo, and hot. And they're usually very impressed with a guy who can go to a Hanson concert and get into it as much as they do. They really do appreciate that. Trust me.

[jeffx]

Jeffx wrote:

Hanson? As in Isaac and Zac Hanson? At least now I know how I can judge those everything of today sucks line comes from.

Shame on you! I bet you haven't heard them since Mmmbop a decade ago. they're all grown up and married with children now. Great stuff!

Yeah I have heard 'em since Mmmbop. Still didn't like it. I'm just giving you a hard time. Music preference is music preference. I'm sure you would poke fun at some of the stuff I listen to as well.

For full disclosure the last 3 concerts I went to: Morrissey, Jonathan Coulton, Jonathan Coulton.

[Minstrel]

But could Hanson beat Galactus? That's the real question.

Sorry, couldn't resist!

[Mira]

But could Hanson beat Galactus? That's the real question.

Sorry, couldn't resist!

It might go something like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXCUBVS4kfQ

Mira (A conscience is what hurts when all your other parts feel so good)

[Sangalor]

But could Hanson beat Galactus? That's the real question.

Sorry, couldn't resist!

It might go something like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXCUBVS4kfQ

Mira (A conscience is what hurts when all your other parts feel so good)

Looks about right - the only thing missing is the follow-up shot of the Silver Surfer grumbling about having to clean the boots!

[Sangalor]

Halaster

Talking about emasculation of the game - have you been following some of the proposed 4th ed rules regarding death, resting, healing?

I'd love to hear your thoughts on those

[adidamps2]

Halaster

Talking about emasculation of the game - have you been following some of the proposed 4th ed rules regarding death, resting, healing?

I'd love to hear your thoughts on those

+1 that for me as well.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Sangalor wrote:

Talking about emasculation of the game - have you been following some of the proposed 4th ed rules regarding death, resting, healing?

I'd love to hear your thoughts on those

I'd love to comment on it, but I haven't heard anything much. Is there a link to the rules where I can agonize reading it?

[adidamps2]

Sangalor wrote:

Talking about emasculation of the game - have you been following some of the proposed 4th ed rules regarding death, resting, healing?

I'd love to hear your thoughts on those

I'd love to comment on it, but I haven't heard anything much. Is there a link to the rules where I can agonize reading it?

enworld and WOTC 4E section are full of supposed info

[Sangalor]

Sangalor wrote:

Talking about emasculation of the game - have you been following some of the proposed 4th ed rules regarding death, resting, healing?

I'd love to hear your thoughts on those

I'd love to comment on it, but I haven't heard anything much. Is there a link to the rules where I can agonize reading it?

enworld and WOTC 4E section are full of supposed info

I read the summary from enworld:

http://www.ucalgary.ca/~amwhit/4e_PrRC_v2.0.pdf

I noticed that I suffered from hysterical blindness if I read too much at one time

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Where do I begin?

First, what the hell do humans need a +2 to any ability score for? And extra bonus feat and extra skills and an extra this and that. Whiner Concession ®.

Speed is measured in squares now? Oh, I forgot. Gotta use miniatures.

Eldarin? Show me how a human can mate with a faerie and the faeirie survives. 'Nuff said. Stupid.

Dragonborn? Sigh.

What's this nonsense about elves living to be 200 years old? It used to be over 1,200. Yeah, I know it says "well over 200 years", but 1,200 is a hell of a lot more than "well over 200". Why not "Well over 1,000 years"? Are they emasculating elves now too?

I didn't realize that Hellboy was a character race in 4E.

Ten encounters is enough to level? Good lord. Why not just start the freaking characters at 50th level and be done with it? Whiner Concession ®

Paragon path? Epic destiny? Do I want to know?

4 words. Defender, leader, striker, controller. They left out joystick. It's a video game.

Is the "suite of combat options" similar to the suite of software I get with my anti-virus software and with stuff like Microsoft Office? I guess the 4E people will be able to get me to agree that it's no longer a video game. It's now a computer game.

"Dude, my controller has a phat suite of kewl powerz for his paragon path."

Where's the vomit bag?

No more tracking rounds because that's too mentally draining for the brain-vaped vidiots who are going to play it.

All the stupid exploits and daily prayers and stuff sounds like video game...er...computer game simulations. Stupid crap. And I'm sure I wouldn't want my cleric feeling white hot surges at the table, you know?


Seems to me that there are tons of new powers that can be used every round or something. They're taking power escalation to heights never even dreamed of in 3E.

A freaking flail does 1d10 damage?
A warhammer does 1d10?

More than half the document is about "kEwL PowErZ"!

Am I reading this correctly? We take a vanilla fighter (although in 4E that's more like a chocolate/vanilla/strawberry/rocky road with cherries, granola, sprinkles, and M&Ms on top fighter). He has a CON score of 18, so his modified is +4. He gets 9+4=13 healing surges per day, and he can use each one to heal 1/4th of his hit points if he spends them as a second wind? That's the equivalent of a fighter simply taking a deep breath and healing his entire amount of hit points over 3 times per day? WTF?

Whiner Concession ®

Square fireballs are just so kewl, aren't they?

I will quote:

Everything you do can pretty much get you XP. At the same time, the new system allows you to take the players from one level to the next without ever having to swing a sword.

Why even bother to show up for the game? Just phone the DM:

"Hey Bob? Yeah, it's Steve. My wizard is going to be sitting at home studying tomes and shit and I'll drop in to play him in 3 weeks when he goes from 3rd to 27th level from all that studying. Cool? Ok. See you in three weeks. [Hangs up] Man, this game is awesome! I don't have to get off my lazy ass or even roll dice and I can level!"

This is so stupid as to be offensive.

I noticed that the character sheet is 2 pages long, and half of each (ie fully 50% of it) is dedicated to powers and feats. Whiner Concession ®

I'm sorry, but any time I argue with anyone about 4E anywhere, if thatg person tries claiming it's not a computer game, my standard reply is:

"You're delusional. STFU."

Anyone reading that who cannot clearly see that shouldn't be reading it but should be back in school polishing his reading comprehension skills or something.

1. They refer to it by its release number, like software ("I'm playing 4.0. I got tired of 3.5"). They don't even refer to it as D&D anymore.

2. You now get "suites" of powers, just like you get "suites" of programs in your computer packages.

3. Lots of automation, just like a computer game!

4. Lots of reset button powers, just like a computer game!

5. Lots of marking and labeling, just like a computer game!

Why don't they just put out a freaking computer game and stop wasting times printing up paper books? It's a freaking computer game, so why not market it like one?

And I thought 3E sucked! If 3E was a vacuum cleaner, 4E is a galaxy-sized black hole.

[jeffx]

Where do I begin?

By waiting for the actual published rules? That's where I am going to start. I stopped looking at the enworld document when they included two rules because they couldn't decide which one was going to be correct. That document is all speculation based on what people have seen and can then debate for in a forum. I will hold judgment until i have the rules in my hands. I am one of the "brain-vaped vidiots" who will be playing 4e. At least for a little bit.

4E requires a computer to play?

[Minstrel]

My god, they took the time to put together a 56 page booklet on what they're speculating about the rules for 4e? I wish I had one quarter of that amount of time to dedicate to real hobby work on editions that have actually been printed yet!

[Halaster Blackcloak]

There's no need to wait for the final release of the rules. We can see the information that's already been leaked out. We can see the developers and the head of WOTC being interviewed and telling us where their game is going. It's becoming a computerized bastardization of D&D. Of that there can be no question whatsoever. Denying that undeniable fact would be akin to denying the sun rising in the east even as it blinds one's eyes.

I have no problem with people playing it, or with those who will play it. What bothers me is when people insist on pretending that it's related to real D&D, the game created by Gary Gygax. What bothers me is when people playing the bastardized, computerized, numbers-crunching, card-game inspired pale imitation of the real thing insist that it's better than AD&D or even related to it. What bothers me is when the idiots at WOTC cling like parasites to the rights for AD&D, when they clearly have no use for it, thus making it impossible for anyone to develop AD&D material on a professional basis, for sale.

Personally, I think 4E is/will be an even more stupid, more vapid, more emasculated version than 3E was. All the things that made AD&D great have been taken out. All the things that made AD&D challenging have been taken out. And they're dumbing it down for the slacker crowd. There's no question about that.

And of course, that doesn't mean that everyone who plays it is a moronic slacker.

But it does mean that it caters to the lowest common denominator (or as I like to say it, the lowliest common denominator), and therefore that's predominantly what will be attracted to it. Nothing is ever improved by catering to the lowest common denominator. Nothing. Ever. It is always a process of degradation of quality, by necessity. And I am always against that sort of thing. Which is a big part of why I hated 3E and 3.5E and 4E.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

Oh, and I love how the document literally begs people not to make a decision about 4E before the rules actually come out. Then why the @%*# are they putting together a 56 page document about it? Are these people so lifeless or so owned by WOTC that they have nothing better to do than to compile massive documents of speculation?

And it always seems to be the same people who buzzed forever about 3E and then 3.5E and now 4E. Never happy, never satisfied, always hungry for something better, but always willing to settle for crap. And they justify the overpriced crap being peddled to them as well! Personally, I find this constant hunger disgusting. Settle on something and stick with it. Who the hell wants to "upgrade" their books every 4-6 years just to "keep current" with a new edition? To me, that's a sign of mental illness - never being happy with what one has, always needing something "new". People say change is good, and it is. But too much change is just as bad as not enough. And people tend not to appreciate stability, which is every bit as important as change.

Everything coming out about 4E reads like a freaking computer manual. Recharging powers and v4.0 and suites. If it's not a computer game, then why are they using so much computer terminology? And I see a hell of a lot of "shift one square" type powers and "reroll" powers. Clearly, 4E is going to be even more dependent on miniatures than even 3E was.

Like I said, pure crap. I'll bet my life on it. That's how sure I am that it's going to suck. It just amazes me that I can take a relatively simple game that I've been playing for over 30 years now and still derive all sorts of fun from it, without ever covering the same ground twice. And yet the "modern gamer" needs an "upgrade" every 4-5 years.

[Halaster Blackcloak]

ROTFLMAO!! I just read this stupidity:

Torturous Strike

If you twist the blade in the wound just so, you can make your enemy
howl in pain. (You gain a bonus to the damage roll equal to your Strength modifier.)

Oh lord! Because, you know, that's so much fun. To make your enemy howl in pain. And so useful too!

Does the 4E DMG come with a CD-Rom disc that the DM can play when the PC elicits such howls of pain?

And who needs magic weapons? All the powers of magic weapons are being incorporated into the character abilities! Who needs a sword of wounding when you can have...

Crimson Edge

You deal your enemy a vicious wound that continues to bleed, and like a shark, you circle in for the kill.

The target takes ongoing damage equal to 5 + your Strength modifier and grants combat advantage to you.

It's just stupid.

"You deal your enemy a vicious wound that continues to bleed, and like a shark, you circle in for the kill."

LSFHIHM!!

[adidamps2]

Halastrer can I repost your thoughts on the 3E and $E over at WOTC, either with your name or anonymously qouted, because it would really rile thier feathers and at the same time give me a good chuckle at their reactions...LOL I figured I'd ask 1st instead of just doing it. But it would be fun to see the crazed reations over it!

[Varl]

funny, funny comments, Halaster. I'm still chuckling.

"Dude, my controller has a phat suite of kewl powerz for his paragon path."

Where's the vomit bag?

The change in terminology is what gets me. Why? Can anyone give me a valid reason why all the classes need specific role definitions? Isn't that supposed to be part of the fun of developing a character by the player?

4 words. Defender, leader, striker, controller. They left out joystick. It's a video game.

Tragic. Every time I hear these terms, I want to shout out "LF2 more Defenders 4 Gnomeregan! PST!"

Am I reading this correctly? We take a vanilla fighter (although in 4E that's more like a chocolate/vanilla/strawberry/rocky road with cherries, granola, sprinkles, and M&Ms on top fighter). He has a CON score of 18, so his modified is +4. He gets 9+4=13 healing surges per day, and he can use each one to heal 1/4th of his hit points if he spends them as a second wind?

Sounds about right to me. I can't wait for the Breaking Wind healing effect, which I think most people can truly relate to!

That's the equivalent of a fighter simply taking a deep breath and healing his entire amount of hit points over 3 times per day? WTF?

Death and risk are dead. They've been replaced by Healing Surge, Second Wind, and no less than 3 (count them, THREE!) chances to fail a check before you die. Why even bother with death at all anymore? I propose they create a nice little swirly miniature that you attach to the head of your PC miniature whenever your beat down to 0 hps. This will be to represent your "stunned" state, from which you'll recover when the rest of your friends win through. Note I said when.

But, I've now broken the cardinal rule of predicting the future of how 4e might possibly be, which is funny because everyone else is too.

[Minstrel]

As I said once before, I will still give the books a quick skim over in the store, just to be fair, but I doubt this time, unlike with 3e, that I'll actually fork over the cash for a set.

Just based on what's been "officially" released for info, it's clear enough to me that the new edition is focused on all the character build and combo aspects that I find tremendously appealing in a good computer game, and terribly disappointing in a pen and paper RPG. In AD&D, spells and class abilities, for the most part, stood on their own. You used them for their effect and not as part of a combo, or some master plan to customize your t00n (sorry, usually try, but couldn't resist the sarcasm).

While some people might find this appealing, I can't think of much I can say to anyone who denies that that is, indeed, a primary focus of the game as written.

[jeffx]

And it always seems to be the same people who buzzed forever about 3E and then 3.5E and now 4E. Never happy, never satisfied, always hungry for something better, but always willing to settle for crap. And they justify the overpriced crap being peddled to them as well! Personally, I find this constant hunger disgusting. Settle on something and stick with it. Who the hell wants to "upgrade" their books every 4-6 years just to "keep current" with a new edition? To me, that's a sign of mental illness - never being happy with what one has, always needing something "new". People say change is good, and it is. But too much change is just as bad as not enough. And people tend not to appreciate stability, which is every bit as important as change.

This is something I can certainly agree with. If there is no need to upgrade, don't. If you like what you have, stay with it. I don't think Hasbro is going to come to anyone's door and demand their 3.X books. Nevermind, anything prior. We are all safe in our edition of choice.

Make no mistake. 3.5 is what D&D is now. 4th Edition is what it is going to become. This IS D&D. Hate it all you want, it won't change. All the bile and disgust you muster doesn't change anything. Maybe no one will make the move. Maybe everyone will stick it to Hasbro and not buy a single book. Then Hasbro will see the error in their ways and go "old school". I doubt it.

D&D lost. The role-playing game community has evolved passed them. It is actually more the fault of TSR than WotC or Hasbro. Somewhere in 2E there was a snapping point. I don't know precisely where that point is but it happened. This is when three camps formed.

The first camp, myself included, drew a line in the sand and said "This is the last PHB I will ever buy." To us, D&D has no future after that. We will dig around on eBay, buy our $4 Paizo PDFs, or download original new content from the web but that is where it stops. We are resistant to change. But we still read the news and complain about how they bastardized the game. They haven't 2E is the same today as it was when we drew the line in the sand.

The second group, my DM mentor included, left D&D and moved on to something "better". Is it really nerdy that I have someone I consider my DM mentor? Okay, I did got to a hockey game tonight. That makes me slightly less of a nerd. Right? Okay where's the tape for my glasses? My mentor, Ed, switched from D&D to Ars Magica. This was a HUGE blow to the D&D community. There are lots of people like this. These are the people who see that D&D is really not mature in terms of todays modern RPGs. These people didn't want to be left behind and wanted the advancement of the larger RPG community.

The third group was small but is growing in numbers. This is the group that Hasbro appears to be catering to. It is a large group and it is why Hasbro is trying to get as many of them as they can. They are the people coming to the game from WoW or from Magic. This is the group where the large amount of money can be made. Hasbro is going to milk it for all it is worth.

Just keep playing the game you like. When you play, pull out your 2nd Edition books and play. When people laugh or chuckle (I've never had it happen) invite them into your game. If they still laugh or mock you, just give 'em a smile and let 'em know you will be there when they are complaining about the 4.5 upgrade. invite them back. When you DM a game, make as much new content as you can and make it available. If not, all D&D is going to go away.

Wow, what a rant. I probably should go back and edit but I am not going to. I am lazy and I need another beer. Second Edition D&D is a great game. Nothing about 3.x or 4e is going to take away from that greatness. Complaining about how horrible everything has become isn't going to make 2E any better or make 4E any better either. All WE can do is create as much quality content for the game we love.

Jeff

PS: All that said, I am still anxious about getting my 4E books in the mail.

[Sangalor]

jeffx

I'm not sure how you fall into the 1st camp when your actually buying the 4th ed books?

[jeffx]

jeffx

I'm not sure how you fall into the 1st camp when your actually buying the 4th ed books?

Because i am a hypocrite. Actually, I just want to make sure my line in the sand is still secure. I want to make that decision on my own. It isn't the type of decision that can be made by flipping through books in the book store. It isn't the type of decision I can make on other people's impressions.

I am still in the first camp. I just might be throwing $62.97 away to be certain.

[Sangalor]

Well I can certainly make one criticism which is factual - they have dropped gnomes as a PC race which I consider is a very negative thing.

I think this has mostly come about due to the misrepresentation of gnomes in the various settings eg. Dragonlance eccentric gnomes and the Forgotten Realms deep gnomes (as presented by a certain writer who I shall refer to as Drizzt Inc.).

I always thought the 2nd ed supplemental guide to Gnomes (and Halflings) actually presented them in a sensible way - anyone have thoughts on this?