Level Draining Undead - Revisited

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Halaster Blackcloak
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Level Draining Undead - Revisited

Post by Halaster Blackcloak »

Old topic, new thoughts! :lol:

So I'm going to try running another Zoom AD&D game again with a group of old friends I've known from grade school. We'd stopped playing for awhile because of attendance issues and what not, but that seems fixed. And with Halloween season coming (I refer to Oct. 1st thru 31st as Halloween "season"), I had an idea of incorporating vampires into the game with inspiration from the old Hammer Horror film Legend of the Seven Golden Vampires (titled The Seven Brothers Meet Dracula in the USA and Seven Kung Fu Brothers and Their Sister Kick Dracula's Ass by an irreverent friend of mine :roll: ).

The problem is level drains. The players are mature enough not to have problems with level drains. These guys don't even like resurrections. You die, they wanna roll up a new character. Old school guy! :lol: But the problem is the logistics of it. I've never liked the work involved. By the book, a drain from a vampire drops you two levels (except that xp-wise you are only drained 1.5 levels). For example if you're drained from 5th level to 3rd level, you're not at starting p for 3rd level. You're drained to xp at half-way between 3rd and 4th level - see PHB pg. 104). I guess that part is irrelevant. The point is, you drop from 5th to 3rd level. So now you have to adjust things like thaco, hp, spell selection, certain special abilities, etc. It's a lot of tinkering with stats and numbers and slows the game down as everyone has to re-calculate their hp, thaco, and check off things they can no longer do. For spellcasters it's a nightmare because you not only lose access to certain numbers of spells, but also the number of spells you can cast per spell level. It's a ton of fucking tedious, slow, administrative work that grinds the game to a halt.

So I'm trying to figure out an easier (more efficient) way to run this without watering down level drain. At a tabletop game where we're trying a long term ongoing campaign where the PCs are concerned with story and character development over advancement, this isn't an issue - we'd just use level drain BTB. But this is a campaign we're not taking too seriously, just a fun go-out-and-adventure sorta game.

I want to keep it potent, so I'm trying to figure out a system for it. I was thinking of having each level drain (for each level) take off 20% of current hit points. So for a ghoul it would take off 10% of hit points but a vampire on one hit would take off 40% of current hit points. Sure, the 3rd hit kills the character, but they're all 6th level, so 3 hits using the BTB rules kills them as well. Not really any more deadly than going BTB. I was also considering just adding a +2 penalty to thaco and damage per hit (for a vampire - it would be a +1 penalty for say a ghoul).

So looking at a generic 6th level fighter (I'll ignore any STR or CON bonuses to make this easier), he'll have a THACO 15 and an average of 33 hp. The first hit of the vampire would drain 40% (13 hp rounded up) of his original 33 hp, leaving him with 20 hp and a THACO of 17. On the next hit, he loses 13 hp (20% of the original 33 hp) leaving him with 13 hp and a THACO of 19. A third hit would take off another 13 hp, which kills him.

I think that system would work fine and be simple enough for everyone to use and it makes vampires still a really tough threat. I'm also considering a long term CON deduction or perhaps it would be easier to simply make it where magical healing does not work on hp lost to level drain - those hp have to be healed naturally through rest. That might be easier than a CON deduction.

What I'm having trouble with is how to handle spell loss. That's a fucking can of worms. A simple method would be to lose access to spells of a certain level with each touch. So for example, 6th level wizards get access to 3rd level spells. Therefore, the first touch of the vampire would remove their ability to cast 3rd level spells, the next touch removes their ability to cast 2nd level spells, and the third touch kills them anyway, so losing 1st level spells is moot. Using the BTB rules, a character may still be able to cast spells of each level, but not as many of them, which complicates the matter. There are a lot of methods to determine which they lose (they lose random spells, they lose spells picked by the DM, they lose spells most often or least often used, etc). But regardless of how that is determined, it's a fucking hassle. So I'm thinking simply losing an entire level of spells with each drain makes it very simple and also very potent.

I've also thought about making each hit of the vampire drain 1 level instead of 2, but giving them 2 attacks per round. I'm not sure if that's better, worse, or no different than just keeping it at 2 levels drained and only 1 attack per round. I was thinking that doing so would make ALL level drains equal, except that some monsters (like vampires) can attack twice per round. Granted, each drain is less potent, but they could drain 2 different characters per round. I wonder how that would play out? The idea just popped into my head as I was writing this. What do you guys think?
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garhkal
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Re: Level Draining Undead - Revisited

Post by garhkal »

Halaster Blackcloak wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2024 5:19 pm So I'm going to try running another Zoom AD&D game again with a group of old friends I've known from grade school. We'd stopped playing for awhile because of attendance issues and what not, but that seems fixed. And with Halloween season coming (I refer to Oct. 1st thru 31st as Halloween "season"), I had an idea of incorporating vampires into the game with inspiration from the old Hammer Horror film Legend of the Seven Golden Vampires (titled The Seven Brothers Meet Dracula in the USA and Seven Kung Fu Brothers and Their Sister Kick Dracula's Ass by an irreverent friend of mine :roll: ).
Sounds like it might be fun.. Pity i don't game online.
Halaster Blackcloak wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2024 5:19 pmThe point is, you drop from 5th to 3rd level. So now you have to adjust things like thaco, hp, spell selection, certain special abilities, etc. It's a lot of tinkering with stats and numbers and slows the game down as everyone has to re-calculate their hp, thaco, and check off things they can no longer do. For spellcasters it's a nightmare because you not only lose access to certain numbers of spells, but also the number of spells you can cast per spell level. It's a ton of fucking tedious, slow, administrative work that grinds the game to a halt.
I have always found charting out what they earned each level, is easiest for level loss.. Just refer to what they gained to see what they lose.
Halaster Blackcloak wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2024 5:19 pm I want to keep it potent, so I'm trying to figure out a system for it. I was thinking of having each level drain (for each level) take off 20% of current hit points. So for a ghoul it would take off 10% of hit points but a vampire on one hit would take off 40% of current hit points. Sure, the 3rd hit kills the character, but they're all 6th level, so 3 hits using the BTB rules kills them as well. Not really any more deadly than going BTB. I was also considering just adding a +2 penalty to thaco and damage per hit (for a vampire - it would be a +1 penalty for say a ghoul).
Is that loss permanent? OR will it 'heal' over time?
Halaster Blackcloak wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2024 5:19 pm What I'm having trouble with is how to handle spell loss. That's a fucking can of worms. A simple method would be to lose access to spells of a certain level with each touch. So for example, 6th level wizards get access to 3rd level spells. Therefore, the first touch of the vampire would remove their ability to cast 3rd level spells, the next touch removes their ability to cast 2nd level spells, and the third touch kills them anyway, so losing 1st level spells is moot. Using the BTB rules, a character may still be able to cast spells of each level, but not as many of them, which complicates the matter. There are a lot of methods to determine which they lose (they lose random spells, they lose spells picked by the DM, they lose spells most often or least often used, etc). But regardless of how that is determined, it's a fucking hassle. So I'm thinking simply losing an entire level of spells with each drain makes it very simple and also very potent.
That is an easy way to solve it.. How would you handle other things, like granted powers for priest?
Halaster Blackcloak wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2024 5:19 pm I've also thought about making each hit of the vampire drain 1 level instead of 2, but giving them 2 attacks per round. I'm not sure if that's better, worse, or no different than just keeping it at 2 levels drained and only 1 attack per round. I was thinking that doing so would make ALL level drains equal, except that some monsters (like vampires) can attack twice per round. Granted, each drain is less potent, but they could drain 2 different characters per round. I wonder how that would play out? The idea just popped into my head as I was writing this. What do you guys think?
One or two attacks, one or two levels.. ITs the same essentially, but one attack roll a round, is easier to do with, than two!
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Halaster Blackcloak
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Re: Level Draining Undead - Revisited

Post by Halaster Blackcloak »

Garhkal wrote:
Sounds like it might be fun.. Pity i don't game online.
Yeah, I'm not fond of online gaming, though everyone playing is so spread out (one lives out of state), so that's our only option. The game really is only properly played in person though. Everything else is a poor substitute.
I have always found charting out what they earned each level, is easiest for level loss.. Just refer to what they gained to see what they lose.
Yeah, I've seen that suggestion but it's still a hassle. I mean, I guess you could simply save character sheets from each level, so when say you're drained from 5th level to 3rd level, you simply whip out the 3rd level sheet. But there are still problems. For example, spell selection. The character may have spells currently memorized that he did not have memorized or perhaps did not even possess while at 3rd level. So what happens to those? And he also loses access to spell levels or the number of spells able to be memorized at each level changes. Ex...

A 6th level wizard gets (4) 1st level spells, (2) 2nd level spells and (2) 3rd level spells.

He gets drained to a 3rd level wizard.

A 3rd level wizard gets (4) 1st level spells and (1) 2nd level spells.

So it's easy that he loses the ability to cast his 3rd level spells, but which of his (2) 2nd level spells does he lose? Roll randomly? And at higher levels it gets worse. And what if his spell selection has changed since then?
Is that loss permanent? OR will it 'heal' over time?
I was thinking of going with the idea that the pure hit point loss restores at the natural healing rate of 1-3 hit points a day (depending on activity level) and cannot be healed using magic. The ability score loss? Hmmm. I wonder if it would be cool to keep the penalty in place until the character is fully healed? What do you think?
hat is an easy way to solve it.. How would you handle other things, like granted powers for priest?
The only bad thing about doing spells that way is that it doesn't match the level of the character. For example, a wizard of 6th level could survive 3 hits from the vampire before he was down to a few hit points, but he would lose all spellcasting ability. Not sure if that is balanced or too harsh. Again, what do you think? It might work, but I've never tried it.

I would probably do special abilities or granted powers for priests and such the same way.
One or two attacks, one or two levels.. ITs the same essentially, but one attack roll a round, is easier to do with, than two!
Yeah, it's a tough call. With one attack each hit is more deadly, but with two attacks there's double the chance of hitting. Not sure which would work better. I'm not a fan of tinkering with the rules too much, unless there's a good reason. Not sure if that change would make it better, worse, or no difference ultimately.
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garhkal
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Re: Level Draining Undead - Revisited

Post by garhkal »

Halaster Blackcloak wrote: Sat Aug 31, 2024 4:44 pm Yeah, I'm not fond of online gaming, though everyone playing is so spread out (one lives out of state), so that's our only option. The game really is only properly played in person though. Everything else is a poor substitute.
Sucks for me too.. All i see in the local area for gaming RPG wise, is shadowrunners OR 5e/path finder folks.
Halaster Blackcloak wrote: Sat Aug 31, 2024 4:44 pm Yeah, I've seen that suggestion but it's still a hassle. I mean, I guess you could simply save character sheets from each level, so when say you're drained from 5th level to 3rd level, you simply whip out the 3rd level sheet. But there are still problems. For example, spell selection. The character may have spells currently memorized that he did not have memorized or perhaps did not even possess while at 3rd level. So what happens to those? And he also loses access to spell levels or the number of spells able to be memorized at each level changes. Ex...
Well for mages it showed what they gained when they leveled up.. SO that six level guy who dropped to 3rd, you should easily see what thye lost.. For priests its easier to do as they still keep the same spell access.
Halaster Blackcloak wrote: Sat Aug 31, 2024 4:44 pm I was thinking of going with the idea that the pure hit point loss restores at the natural healing rate of 1-3 hit points a day (depending on activity level) and cannot be healed using magic. The ability score loss? Hmmm. I wonder if it would be cool to keep the penalty in place until the character is fully healed? What do you think?
SO a 20pt vamp loss, can be 'cured' within 7 days (one week) essentially. Doesn't sound that scary to me. That's why i have never liked some of the alternates folks (especially those on DF) pander around, since most of those suggestions are 'easy' to come back from imo.
Halaster Blackcloak wrote: Sat Aug 31, 2024 4:44 pm Yeah, it's a tough call. With one attack each hit is more deadly, but with two attacks there's double the chance of hitting. Not sure which would work better. I'm not a fan of tinkering with the rules too much, unless there's a good reason. Not sure if that change would make it better, worse, or no difference ultimately.
ITs the age old question (especially from someone used to playing battle tech).
Do i take one BIG shot, or lots of smaller ones.. IE do i shoot only ONE LRM-20 or four LRM-5's. YEA with the LRM5's i stand a BETTER chance of having at least one hit, but its pidly damage.
It's not who you kill, but how they die!
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